Kelly's Heroes - Did Tigers have to keep their engines warm in France?

[StuartH]

On 2/27/2022 at 9:37 AM, Noel Smith said:

If someone has not already done it, a nice set of figures depicting Clint Eastwood, Telly Savalas and Donald Sutherland in their Kelly's Heroes roles approaching the German tank commander to blow the bank doors so they can all be rich after the war would be nice diorama material.

The movie was intended to be a bit light hearted and tongue in cheek rather than factual, hence the Oddball character and other cliche'd characters.

 

I think Oniria miniatures have done a set though may be out of production and was in 1/48.

 

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/oniria-miniatures-wb4-deal--1077969

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/oniria-miniatures-wb6-us-tank-riders--1073542

Crapgame: Then make a DEAL!

Big Joe: What kind of deal?

Crapgame: A DEAL, deal! Maybe the guy’s a Republican. “Business is business,” right?

 

 

[Kingsman]

Oniria also did Oddball and crew with Kelly in 1/48.

 

Jaguar did a pair of similar sets in 1/35.  I have no idea where you might find these today.

 

[StuartH]

 

Warlord Games sell a complete set of miniatures:

 

 

Turk (played by Shepherd Sanders) looks a bit wild with a gun in one hand and a bottle of wine in the other!

 

They also do a Sherman (in 1/56) appropriately named 'Oddball Sherman'. No reference as to what type of Sherman this is. 

 

 

 

 

[Stuart Wilson]

Bolt Action (Warlord Games) also do something they call a "Hollywood Tiger" which as the name suggests is the Tiger from the film. I can't seem to get a link to work.

 

As far as the type of Sherman involved they were M4A3E4s, a postwar rebuild of the M4A3 75mm (w) VVSS adapted to mount the 76mm. The Bolt action model appears to be generally accurate although as a wargaming model it's probably a bit simplified.

 

Stuart

 

 

[Pappy]

On 5/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, Swiftnbold said:

I'm gonna be the 'Oddbal' here and say although it was made as a light-hearted piece of fiction to contrast the reality of the war it's actually now uncomfortable to watch if you do it from a different perspective.

The plot is a serving US NCO who is basically guilty of desertion to rustle up a renegade mob to plunder the national assets of a war torn, occupied country, the citizens of the town welcome them as liberating heroes when their only intention is to rob the bank of it's gold. All the heroism and acts of bravery are not for the aim to free the oppressed from fascism, halt the genocide and bring the war criminals to trial but purely for greed, with the film concluding as them being successful and unpunished for their war crimes.

A depressing and sombre alternative view in stark contrast to the generation of the time but one which fits in with the self righteous,  selectively critical, Millenial generation of today. ☹️

 

 

I agree that a modern perspective casts the film in a different light but I don't think that is how the film was originally envisioned. There is definitely an anti-war /authority theme in place but when viewed through the perspective of a different generation, a film can be seen differently. Compare for example the early James Bond movies to the later ones and you can see how the evolution of the female roles change from that of trophies and glorified 'set dressing' to fully fledged characters that have their own agency.  In the case of K/H, it is interesting to compare it to "Three Kings" which initially resembles the K/H arc in which a breakaway group of soldiers decide to get rich during the chaos of war, but the movie takes a rather different turn as it progresses,

 

FWIW I am a big fan of K/H too!

 

cheers,

 

Pappy

[Noel Smith]

Interesting feedback guys.

1/48th scale and not 1/35th seems a bit odd.

[Andruz61]

Moriarity is my hero !!

lols

 

Until the advent of stuff like ""Saving Ryan's Privates"and Band of Brothers, the film is one of the more tactically and equipment wise accurate war films. Hell, even things like ABtF had more fake equipment in it.

(Thanks to it haveing all the Ex and Current (for the time) Yugoslav Army equipment available)

Great film

[StuartH]

On 5/10/2022 at 7:36 PM, ErikT said:

Every time I see Donald Sutherland in a film, I half expect him to bust out with his Oddball voice and start talking about "them negative waves."  And sure, when you look at the film through our modern "woke" lens, the message is not a good one.  Just like any heist movie, where you're rooting for the 'heroes' who are actually thieves.  Or any assassin movie (John Wick, anyone?) where the good guy is only slightly less bad than the bad guys.  For me, the film is a true classic.  The heroes aren't really heroes, but I don't care. 

 

Interesting point about the definition of 'heroes'. It is worth noting that the film was originally called 'The Warriors'. Post-production it became 'Kelly's Warriors' before finally being titled 'Kelly's Heroes'. I guess the characters can be viewed as being heroes for Kelly by helping him to carry out his plan and also heroes to the people of the French town which they liberate from German occupation.

 

On 5/12/2022 at 6:46 PM, Stuart Wilson said:

Bolt Action (Warlord Games) also do something they call a "Hollywood Tiger" which as the name suggests is the Tiger from the film. I can't seem to get a link to work.

 

As far as the type of Sherman involved they were M4A3E4s, a postwar rebuild of the M4A3 75mm (w) VVSS adapted to mount the 76mm. The Bolt action model appears to be generally accurate although as a wargaming model it's probably a bit simplified.

 

Stuart

 

 

Thanks for the information about the Sherman 👍. Makes sense as I assume they used Shermans which were locally available in Yugoslavia (where the film was shot) at the time.

[Kingsman]

M4A3E4 is relatively easily made in any scale.  There are no real external differences from a 75mm large-hatch M4A3 other than the addition of late features common to all remanufactured and MDAP tanks.  Vision cupola, turret rear MG stowage, turret side spare links, patched 2" mortar aperture, engine door torsion bars etc.  That being said, there was a new gun travel lock at the hull rear.  In simple terms all that is really needed is a 76mm M1A1C gun barrel with "cut down" muzzle collar. 

 

Dragon's M4A3(75)W "ETO" or Asuka's M4A3 "Cougar" in 1/35 have pretty much all you need except the gun barrel from RB, DEF or Aber and possibly now Panzer Art.  The Tamiya M4A3(75) is a poor substitute.

 

A few were converted from M4A3(105)s but they seem to have had standard 75mm turrets substituted during conversion including some older low-bustle types refitted with loaders' hatches.

 

M4A1E6 was a similar conversion of small-hatch M4A1s, at least some of which had the E9 spaced-out suspension.  There were more of these than the M4A3E4  Pakistan was the major user of the M4A1E6 while the M4A3E4s mostly went to Yugolslavia.  Although some of both probably went to other countries too.

[StuartH]

5 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

M4A3E4 is relatively easily made in any scale.  There are no real external differences from a 75mm large-hatch M4A3 other than the addition of late features common to all remanufactured and MDAP tanks.  Vision cupola, turret rear MG stowage, turret side spare links, patched 2" mortar aperture, engine door torsion bars etc.  That being said, there was a new gun travel lock at the hull rear.  In simple terms all that is really needed is a 76mm M1A1C gun barrel with "cut down" muzzle collar. 

 

Dragon's M4A3(75)W "ETO" or Asuka's M4A3 "Cougar" in 1/35 have pretty much all you need except the gun barrel from RB, DEF or Aber and possibly now Panzer Art.  The Tamiya M4A3(75) is a poor substitute.

 

A few were converted from M4A3(105)s but they seem to have had standard 75mm turrets substituted during conversion including some older low-bustle types refitted with loaders' hatches.

 

M4A1E6 was a similar conversion of small-hatch M4A1s, at least some of which had the E9 spaced-out suspension.  There were more of these than the M4A3E4  Pakistan was the major user of the M4A1E6 while the M4A3E4s mostly went to Yugolslavia.  Although some of both probably went to other countries too.

Thanks for the excellent info 👍   You should go on Mastermind some time!

 

I believe Formation models used to do a 1/35 Oddball conversion though I don't think available any more:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/formations-f100-f100-oddball-sherman-conversion--237510

 

 

[APA]

One of the fundamental elements of the film is that it's just like ordinary life. It's a slightly more sophisticated Sargent Bilko. E.g. the Quarter Master is a wheeler dealer (Any stores man in your local factory) and the Generals are glory hunters taking all the credit. (Upper management in any business) There is also a key scene which sets up the whole scenario. Their superior officer is having his 'liberated' boat transported back to the US and doing a runner leaving the 'heroes' alone and to do all the dirty work.

 

Andrew

[TISO]

Just as a note for "the one true scale" there are 2 sets of figures i know

CP Models white metal under name Kevin's heroes (probably some name/trademark issues with The man):

US05 Kevin’s Heroes Characters (4 full figures)

US06 Kevin’s Heroes Tank Crew (3 half figures)

 

https://cpmodels.co.uk/shop/us05-kevins-heroes-characters/

https://cpmodels.co.uk/shop/us06-kevins-heroes-tank-crew/

[StuartH]

On 9/9/2022 at 9:48 PM, TISO said:

Just as a note for "the one true scale" there are 2 sets of figures i know

CP Models white metal under name Kevin's heroes (probably some name/trademark issues with The man):

US05 Kevin’s Heroes Characters (4 full figures)

US06 Kevin’s Heroes Tank Crew (3 half figures)

 

https://cpmodels.co.uk/shop/us05-kevins-heroes-characters/

https://cpmodels.co.uk/shop/us06-kevins-heroes-tank-crew/

 

You can also get the Bank from Kelly's Heroes in 20mm

 

https://www.otpterrain.com/products/bank-from-kellys-heroes?variant=31257853493306

[Kingsman]

He was in many other films, often as a German officer.  More than 35 in fact.  Great Escape, Battle of the Bulge, Battle of Britain to name ones we know.  He last acted in 1988 in War and Remembrance - as an SS officer again.  Born 1933, so he's actually 89 in Nov 22.

[StuartH]

Sadly not many of the original cast left now. Clint Eastwood is 92 and still directing & acting though!

[Bozothenutter]

Not unlike modern trucks/lorries that are left running if expected to be used in a few hours. 

[StuartH]

10 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

Not unlike modern trucks/lorries that are left running if expected to be used in a few hours. 

I know...such a waste of fuel.

I wonder when we will start to see electric and hybrid AFV vehicles.

[At Sea]

2 hours ago, StuartH said:

I wonder when we will start to see electric and hybrid AFV vehicles.

Better for the environment, I can see it now:

 

"...Join the Army, where it's not just the colour that makes our tanks green!"

[Kingsman]

2 hours ago, StuartH said:

I wonder when we will start to see electric and hybrid AFV vehicles.

They are here now, but not in service.  Many companies are going down that road.  Latest I've heard about is Supacat with an "electric" (presumably hybrid) SF patrol vehicle.  Electric-drive, generally hybrid, military demonstrators have been around for almost 20 years.  The UK and Sweden had a jointly-funded programme in the late noughties.  Germany, South Africa and the USA were at it then too.  Military vehicles' electric power consumption needs continue to grow with more and more electronic systems.  The UK spent ££ millions on evaluating whether FRES - now Ajax family and Boxer MIV - should or could use electric drive, concluding that it was not then yet practical.

 

All-electric has a fundamental logistic challenge with charging: you can't carry electricity about in jerrycans.........  Even if you swap the heavy batteries the discharged ones still need to be recharged.  Portable charging using wind or solar are unreliable, vulnerable and can have large visual and radar signatures.  Diesel generation kinda defeats the object.  Flexible roll-up solar chargers were used in Afghanistan for manpack radios but would need to be the size of a football field for a tank.  Electric ranges for heavy vehicles cross-country will be very short.  Maybe no more than the 30 miles or so of heavy tanks of the WW2 era.

 

Batteries are heavy and bulky.  They need to be at the bottom of the vehicle for CG considerations.  Here they are vulnerable to mine and IED strike unless the hull bottom is massively reinforced.  Lithium batteries can suffer from thermal runaway and will in any case heat up during charging and high-energy discharging.  Ventilation in the hull bottom will be problematic.  Battery fragments blasted into the fighting compartment will be less than pleasant.  Shades of DU again.

 

Adding dual drive systems will increase the size, and therefore weight, of the vehicle.  Which in turn will increase the energy consumption, needing more powerful mechanical and electric drivetrains, greater electric generation and storage capacity.  An ever-increasing spiral.  The answer is probably to have permanent electric drive - no mechanical drivetrain - with diesel generation.  This is how LTI have engineered the new London Black Cab and Nissan have engineered the new Qashqai.  That was how the UK and Sweden were thinking 15 years or more ago.

 

It was proved that electric motors needed to be water-cooled for heavy-duty AFV use, so radiators and water systems are still needed.  And as we know, the wet stuff and electrickery don't play nice with each other.  Heat transfer from the motors essentially meant water jackets.  And if you have one motor per track, which is logical and simple for steering, using regenerative braking to scavenge a bit of power too, then you still need some sort of mechanical cross-drive so that one engine can still move the vehicle in an emergency.  But then you can't steer......  Steel tracks were a problem because of their weight - 2-4 tonnes per side on an MBT - and the power loss in just turning them.  Electric drive worked better with rubber tracks.  Which in turn bought its own supportability problems for repair and replacement and an enlarged logistic tail carrying spare tracks, trucks needed cranes to handle them etc.  Sectioned rubber tracks with metal joins were trialled but the metal-rubber bonding proved intractable.

 

Wheeled vehicles have other problems.  Battery weight, bulk and location issues are the same, and you lose perhaps a tonne or more of payload capacity.  Solar panels incorporated into canvas tilts and box body roofs have been considered.  An electric engine driving a conventional mechanical driveline is inefficient and you can't use regenerative braking and power scavenging.  So that leads you to synchronous hub motors: motors in the wheels.  Again these have been experimented-with for military use and have been in commercial use for 20 years.  But you get very heavy wheels with very expensive spares, assuming you're not on runflats.  On AFVs the wheels need armoured covers.  But these also proved to need water cooling and of course they need electric power cables.  The power and water connections, which must flex with the suspension, proved extremely vulnerable to even terrain damage never mind battle damage.  Of course they could be run through hollow suspension wishbones.  Which means redesigning many suspension systems, especially on trucks and other vehicles traditionally using live axles.  Hub drive lends itself to fully independent wishbone designs.  That in turn leads to the possibility of easier all-wheel steering, which some e-drive military demonstrators have, adjustable ride height and even self-jackup wheels for wheel changes.  Like GD's AHED, tested in the UK in about 2007.  Although a US vehicle from GDLS the key drive tech was German, from Magnet Motor - now part of Renk.

 

So, does anyone think we will see hybrid military vehicles in front-line service anywhere soon?  It ain't as simple as you think and it's a world away from a Nissan Leaf or even a Tesla Truck (still only half the weight of an MBT and runs on roads) or the Extreme E electric off-road racing series.  And then someone will develop deployable EMP weapons ............

 

And apologies for hijacking the thread.  My bad.  But someone else started it........  This is perhaps a fertile discussion subject for Real Armour or Armour Chat.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Kingsman
Saved too soon

[Black Knight]

Hybrid is not new.

Prior to WW1 there were hybrid trucks as well as cars.

In WW1 the US Army used a number of hybrid trucks in France. The US Army was unprepared for war so impressed civilian trucks

and WW1 and WW2 submarines were 'hybrid'

[StuartH]

1 hour ago, Kingsman said:

They are here now, but not in service.  Many companies are going down that road.  Latest I've heard about is Supacat with an "electric" (presumably hybrid) SF patrol vehicle.  Electric-drive, generally hybrid, military demonstrators have been around for almost 20 years.  The UK and Sweden had a jointly-funded programme in the late noughties.  Germany, South Africa and the USA were at it then too.  Military vehicles' electric power consumption needs continue to grow with more and more electronic systems.  The UK spent ££ millions on evaluating whether FRES - now Ajax family and Boxer MIV - should or could use electric drive, concluding that it was not then yet practical.

 

All-electric has a fundamental logistic challenge with charging: you can't carry electricity about in jerrycans.........  Even if you swap the heavy batteries the discharged ones still need to be recharged.  Portable charging using wind or solar are unreliable, vulnerable and can have large visual and radar signatures.  Diesel generation kinda defeats the object.  Flexible roll-up solar chargers were used in Afghanistan for manpack radios but would need to be the size of a football field for a tank.  Electric ranges for heavy vehicles cross-country will be very short.  Maybe no more than the 30 miles or so of heavy tanks of the WW2 era.

 

Batteries are heavy and bulky.  They need to be at the bottom of the vehicle for CG considerations.  Here they are vulnerable to mine and IED strike unless the hull bottom is massively reinforced.  Lithium batteries can suffer from thermal runaway and will in any case heat up during charging and high-energy discharging.  Ventilation in the hull bottom will be problematic.  Battery fragments blasted into the fighting compartment will be less than pleasant.  Shades of DU again.

 

Adding dual drive systems will increase the size, and therefore weight, of the vehicle.  Which in turn will increase the energy consumption, needing more powerful mechanical and electric drivetrains, greater electric generation and storage capacity.  An ever-increasing spiral.  The answer is probably to have permanent electric drive - no mechanical drivetrain - with diesel generation.  This is how LTI have engineered the new London Black Cab and Nissan have engineered the new Qashqai.  That was how the UK and Sweden were thinking 15 years or more ago.

 

It was proved that electric motors needed to be water-cooled for heavy-duty AFV use, so radiators and water systems are still needed.  And as we know, the wet stuff and electrickery don't play nice with each other.  Heat transfer from the motors essentially meant water jackets.  And if you have one motor per track, which is logical and simple for steering, using regenerative braking to scavenge a bit of power too, then you still need some sort of mechanical cross-drive so that one engine can still move the vehicle in an emergency.  But then you can't steer......  Steel tracks were a problem because of their weight - 2-4 tonnes per side on an MBT - and the power loss in just turning them.  Electric drive worked better with rubber tracks.  Which in turn bought its own supportability problems for repair and replacement and an enlarged logistic tail carrying spare tracks, trucks needed cranes to handle them etc.  Sectioned rubber tracks with metal joins were trialled but the metal-rubber bonding proved intractable.

 

Wheeled vehicles have other problems.  Battery weight, bulk and location issues are the same, and you lose perhaps a tonne or more of payload capacity.  Solar panels incorporated into canvas tilts and box body roofs have been considered.  An electric engine driving a conventional mechanical driveline is inefficient and you can't use regenerative braking and power scavenging.  So that leads you to synchronous hub motors: motors in the wheels.  Again these have been experimented-with for military use and have been in commercial use for 20 years.  But you get very heavy wheels with very expensive spares, assuming you're not on runflats.  On AFVs the wheels need armoured covers.  But these also proved to need water cooling and of course they need electric power cables.  The power and water connections, which must flex with the suspension, proved extremely vulnerable to even terrain damage never mind battle damage.  Of course they could be run through hollow suspension wishbones.  Which means redesigning many suspension systems, especially on trucks and other vehicles traditionally using live axles.  Hub drive lends itself to fully independent wishbone designs.  That in turn leads to the possibility of easier all-wheel steering, which some e-drive military demonstrators have, adjustable ride height and even self-jackup wheels for wheel changes.  Like GD's AHED, tested in the UK in about 2007.  Although a US vehicle from GDLS the key drive tech was German, from Magnet Motor - now part of Renk.

 

So, does anyone think we will see hybrid military vehicles in front-line service anywhere soon?  It ain't as simple as you think and it's a world away from a Nissan Leaf or even a Tesla Truck (still only half the weight of an MBT and runs on roads) or the Extreme E electric off-road racing series.  And then someone will develop deployable EMP weapons ............

 

And apologies for hijacking the thread.  My bad.  But someone else started it........  This is perhaps a fertile discussion subject for Real Armour or Armour Chat.

 

Thank you for the thorough and enlightening post. What a fascinating topic this is. I didn't realise things were already at this stage of development.

I might set up a thread in the armour discussion area and put your reply in there if you don't mind. Non Kelly's Heroes fans may be interested.

 

I think we've come full circle and got back to the original question of charging batteries 🤣 🤣

It's been quite a journey 🤣

 

 Funny how the issues of charging batteries in Tigers remains a similar issue for today and the future.

 

PS I think this thread has reached the threshold for being a Superthread 😆