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Poland approved for M1A2 SEP V3


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  • 2 weeks later...

Poland is replacing its current 2nd-hand Leopard 2A4/2PLs with the Abrams even though the PL upgrade has not yet been completed, due 2023.  So yes, Leopard was considered.  New Leopard 2A7s are probably beyond Poland's budget at a rumoured €9M each.

 

By buying directly as Foreign Military Sales from US surplus stock Poland is avoiding the need to conduct a full competitive tender under the EU Defence and Security Public Contracts Regulations.  The same was true for their purchase of 2nd hand Leopards from Germany and is true of any direct govt-govt transaction.

 

The US is probably more generous with its export finance credits than other nations may be.

 

France is unlikely to have sufficient surplus Leclercs to meet Poland's needs.  Leclerc replacement is not due until 2035.  None have been built since 2007.  Allegedly Nexter can re-start production but after 15 years they won't be able to build the same vehicle because of obsolescence and a significant redesign and systems update would be needed.

 

But yes, the choice of Abrams is perhaps a little strange - even fully-remanufactured current versions.  It may boil down to being the best of what was available in the timescale at an affordable price.  Logistic support through the increased US forward-deployed forces presence in Germany might have been a factor.

Edited by Das Abteilung
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  • 2 months later...
On 3/5/2022 at 3:33 PM, Das Abteilung said:

Far more Leopards in NATO than Abrams...........

The US - part of NATO - has 4,400 M1A1/A2 Abrams. I reckon there more Abrams in NATO than Leopard 2s. 

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2 hours ago, GMK said:

The US - part of NATO - has 4,400 M1A1/A2 Abrams. I reckon there more Abrams in NATO than Leopard 2s. 

No doubt but I think the reasoning was more countries in NATO use leopards😀

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16 hours ago, ivan-o said:

No doubt but I think the reasoning was more countries in NATO use leopards😀

Agreed. So, more countries in NATO use Leopard 2 variants, but there are fewer overall. Makes Abrams look like the smart bet, imo

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10 hours ago, colin said:

Is there a need for the top spec more expensive tank looking at what's happening in Ukraine 

 

Its something that tankers call SURVIVABILITY...   the abrams has the tops in survivability against what is fired by other tanks and anti tank missiles. 

 

Sure we have shoulder launched recoil less rocket system that can punch a hole through anything the russians are currently fielding, but to punch the abrams armor youd be wanting to use depleted uranium penetrators, and the only country in europe that MIGHT have them is russia,, so in essence  due to political theology... 

 

the year is now 1944 and Poland has unleashed the hell of the Tiger II. The leppard would be a sherman firefly in comparison. 

 

Both capable, but with the same gun system in both its null. until you load up with depleted uranium

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/29/2022 at 8:57 AM, masterKamera said:

until you load up with depleted uranium

Would Poland or actually any foreign army get such munitions anyways?

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Very few people are using DU today because of the health concerns.  I'm not sure the US is still using it for tank munitions.  HEAT is still the predominant munition in 120-125mm calibre because of its significantly greater effectiveness and the fact that it has no maximum effective range other than the maximum ballistic range.  If the fuse initiates the target effect is the same at any range.  Unlike any kinetic penetrator in any calibre and of any material which bleeds off velocity and thus energy with range.

 

The US is about to field the new M1147 Advanced Multi-Purpose munition of significantly enhanced effectiveness and which doubles as both HEAT and HE.  Whether this will be available to allies remains to be seen.  Probably not before full fielding to US forces is accomplished in normal times, but these are not normal times.

https://militaryleak.com/2017/10/20/ausa-2017-orbital-atks-xm1147-advanced-multi-purpose-ammunition/

 

The US is also stopping M1A2SEPv3 upgrading and fielding and will move to SEPv4 very shortly.  What this means for the Polish purchase I do not know.  It has not been past US practice to export their latest build standard even to allies before full US fielding has been accomplished, and even then there has often been a delay.

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1 hour ago, exdraken said:

Would Poland or actually any foreign army get such munitions anyways?

In peacetime, no.

The depleted uranium rounds are not allowed for export and it is understood that Poland will get the old generation APFSDS-T rounds and other ammunition, but Poland (I understand) can produce own ammunition, and is doing so for the Leopard II tanks.

In a full blown war however, I think that restriction will be lifted.

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According to the attached document, Poland will receive:

 

"...thirteen thousand nine hundred twenty (13,920) 120mm M830A1 High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) TP-T cartridges; and six thousand nine hundred sixty (6,960) 120mm XM1147 High Explosive multipurpose tracers."

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The (now) M1147 is the new AMP round.  So they will be getting that, presumably as warshot stock with the larger number of older M830 for training.  But that's a small number equating to only 1 complete load-out of M830 and a half load-out of M1147 for a fleet of 250.  So I wonder if that will be ammunition for training in the USA, especially noting that they are all tracers.  That's about 80 rounds per gunner, assuming all 250 are trained in the USA.  Their Leopard and other European ammunition will be compatible and it won't be long before someone comes up with a copycat version of the AMP.

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As far as training rounds:

 

 "...nine thousand one hundred sixty-eight (9,168) 120mm M865 Target Practice, Cone Stabilized, Discarding Sabot - Tracer (TPCSDS-T) cartridges; four thousand five hundred ninety-two (4,592) 120mm M1002 Target Practice Multipurpose Tracer (TPMP-T) projectiles."

 

I'm not sure how far that will go as far as training proficiency.

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Those rounds are not bad at all for use.  Right now that training round is just a short range version of the non uranium penetrator round the USA has had for a goodly time. 

 

On armor it wont be bad, 

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