PK-174 Diamond T Transporter - *FINISHED* - in memory of my grandfather who drove them during the Suez Emergency.

[Quiet Mike]

It's arrived! Wasn't well packed by the seller, it was just a recycled Amazon book box, and as a result it was a bit squashed. Luckily everything stayed in the box and there's no missing parts.

I'm not sure I ever built this back in the day? It looks vaguely familar though. That's a good thing, it'll feel like a new kit for me!

 

PK-174 Diamond T by Mike, on Flickr

 

I can remember several stories my late grandfather told me as a nipper, relating to these massive tractor units. He served in the RASC from '42 to '60, and drove these while stationed in Egypt during the early '50s.  When they had to load Universal Carriers on the trailer, they used to drive on at a rate of knots, and 'handbrake turn' on the trailer bed, skidding sideways. This way they could do the same with another Carrier and get two on the trailer instead of one?! Another time a driver was having difficulties loading a tank on. A bullish officer came up and decided to lead by example, and show how it should be done properly. With a little too much bravado he drove on so fast he ended up on top of the cab of the Diamond T!  And another story where my grandfather doesn't cover himself in glory, running an Egyptian lorry who wouldn't give way off the road, then stopping and pinching a crate of Coca Cola, his cargo, before driving off!

I've no idea how British vehicles were painted in Post War Egypt leading up to the Suez Crisis. One would imagine in sand colour. If anyone has any info on this that would be great.

 

Charlie out in Egypt 1950-53

 

Grandad Charlie in Suez by Mike, on Flickr

 

Grandad Charlie out in Egypt by Mike, on Flickr

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Quiet Mike said:

I've no idea how British vehicles were painted in Post War Egypt leading up to the Suez Crisis. One would imagine in sand colour. If anyone has any info on this that would be great.

I'll @Mike Starmer and @Das Abteilung

https://www.mafva.org/british-vehicle-camouflage-1939-45/?v=79cba1185463

 

"MIDDLE EAST.

Middle East practice was determined by Middle East General Orders.

1936-40 – 11th Hussars R-R cars and some trucks in 1936 were basic Silver with Black disrupter. 11th Hussar’s cars in 1937 may be Pale CreamNo.52 and Terracotta No.44 and possibly their softskins too. These maintained a fairly consistent pattern.  Vickers Medium II tanks of 6 RTC in 1935 used Black over silver in a random type striped design but in 1937 applied Red Oxide 46 over a base of No.52 Pale Cream, now to a set pattern which was retained until 1939 using later colours as specified by GHQ BTE.

On 25 July 1939 GO.370 specified a base tone of BS.381C Middle Stone No. 62 with disruptive patterning of “Dark Sand”.  6th RTC A9 tanks appear initially in August 1939 in plain Middle Stone No. 62 by May 1940 have ‘dark sand’ areas similar to the 1937 pattern.  Vickers Light Tank Mk.III also carried this type of patterning too, probably the same colours.  This scheme appears relatively common in Egypt in summer 1940. 11th Hussars complied with the colours but again, over the original pattern.

1940-41; Under G.O. 297 November 1940 very many AFVs and softskins in three tone Caunter scheme of Light Stone 61 or Portland Stone 64 as basic colour with Silver Grey 28 and Slate 34 or G3 left on as an expedient dark tone.  G.O.s of this period specifies Light Stone or Portland Stone at various times.   A scheme for The Sudan specified Light Stone No.61 or No. 64 Portland Stone with Light Purple Brown No. 49 in lieu of Silver Grey No. 28 and Light Stone No.61 in lieu of No. 34 Slate to the same pattern.  The two coloured pattern based on ‘Caunter’ and used in Greece during April and May 1941 using Light Stone No.61 or Slate No.34 or some unknown colour.  Light Purple Brown was exclusively the Sudan scheme, as yet no evidence of the pattern using the Sudan design has been found although photographs do appear to show it in use as wavy horizontal stripes on a carrier there. 

Oct.1941 – Signal 4/105 calls for one base tone No 61 Light Stone only now to be used before issue to units, G.O. 297 is cancelled.

December 5 1941 M.E.G.O. 1273 calls for one basic colour, either Portland or Light Stone with only one colour over at the discretion of Commands.  At first this may have been Slate, in patches or larger areas but later S.C.C.7 green, Silver Grey No. 28 and black brown have been noted in apparently random patterns.  A whole range of brigade inspired designs came and went from early 1942 until October 1942 when these steadily disappeared.  A Camcolour range of water based colours had been evolved for all camouflage purposes.  Some of these are likely to have been applied over the basic colour in the brigade designs.

October 1942 – M.E.G.O.1650 cancels all previous patterns and substitutes standardised drawings for certain A.F.V. types and vehicle classes issued by the Camouflage Directorate of GHQ Middle East.  Not all vehicles required disruptive painting. Colours stated are: Basic tone of Desert Pink ZI with a disruptive pattern in Dark Olive Green probably similar to S.C.C.11B and 7 respectively.  Black, Very Dark Brown and Dark Slate are alternatives.  These were probably similar to S.C.C.14, 1A and Slate 34.   These designs are common on Shermans, Grants, Valentines, Crusaders, Stuarts.  The 6 Churchill tanks of Kingforce, which were painted in UK with Light Stone No.61 carried a red-brown pattern over this in the Crusader pattern.  As Desert Pink was a new colour, Light Stone continued in use on existing vehicles.  Desert Pink occurs on its own as a single tone on vehicles of no tactical value and ACVs disguised as 10 ton trucks.

Although M.T.P.46 had provision for M.E. colours the actual the use of this patterning has not been confirmed there although some official pictures taken in UK strongly suggest that this was done.

From April 1943 – M.E.G.O. 1650 is cancelled and new designs issued by G(Cam.) with new colours for use in Tunisia, Sicily, Italy and all of Middle East.  Base tone is S.C.C.5 “Light Mud” with Black or S.C.C.7 in bold patterns for camouflage.  Lend Lease vehicles used Light Mud over No.9 Olive Drab as an alternative but applied according to the drawings.  By 1944 European colours and schemes predominated."

 

Obviously this is WW2.   If you have any pics, and it's obviously a 'sand' colour,  either Light Stone No.61 or SCC 5 'Light Mud' are possibilties, 

 

Then I had a search....

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235034888-british-army-suez-1952/

 

  

On 07/03/2018 at 11:57, Das Abteilung said:

I was at a talk yesterday given by Dick Taylor, author of the Warpaint books.  This was something he touched on.  He said that our post-war desert color has been and remains Light Stone, which he said is the still same colour as the wartime Light Stone.  The BS number has changed as the standards have been updated.  As for a pre-mixed colour, I have no recommendations for acrylics.  in enamels I would look at Mike Starmer's mix recommendation and perhaps find an acrylic which matches this.  His booklets contain matched colour swatches.

 

On point regarding the above

"

Light Stone BS.61  (MESCC.23).

Mix: 8 x Humbrol 74 + 1 x Humbrol 26.

Tamiya: 7 x XF2 + 2 x XF59 + 2 x XF3.

In use: 1938-42 as basic colour in Middle East.

Description: A light, very yellow sand.  NOT the same colour as post war BS.361 of this name."

 

So,  some confusion there....

 

Hopefully others more knowledgeable will clairify

 

HTH

 

[PeterB]

2 hours ago, Quiet Mike said:

I've no idea how British vehicles were painted in Post War Egypt leading up to the Suez Crisis. One would imagine in sand colour. If anyone has any info on this that would be great.

 

Hi,

 

As I was about to type this I see Troy has replied. A few years ago I was told that a good source of info on British AFV colours and markings was the Mushroom Publications "Warpaint" series by Dick Taylor - can't remember if it was during a conversation with Mike Starmer, or perhaps Peter Willey who was then curator at the Tank Museum. Anyway, Vol 3 says that the wartime schemes remained in use until around 1955 when the SCC15 and SCC16 was replaced with Deep Bronze Green for use in Europe and the Far East respectively. However, in the Middle East including Egypt the wartime Light Stone paint continued to be used, usually without any disruptive camo paint over it. This is my Airfix Bofors I did in Colourcoats Light Stone a year or so back.

and this is the Tank Museum take about 10 years ago on their Matilda II.

It is in a version of the Caunter scheme - Light Stone, Slate Grey or perhaps dark blue grey and a light blue/grey perhaps both the latter being from Naval paint stocks at Tobruk though there is some debate about that. The official colours were called Slate Grey" and "Silver Grey" and for many years it was thought to look like this but oddly enough Silver Grey is actually a pale grey green!

 

When I did my Diamond T many years ago I either used the old Humbrol Authentic HM1 "8th Army Desert Yellow" or maybe the later Hu 93 "Desert Yellow" which was listed as the replacement - both are paler and less yellow than the Colourcoats version, as I suspect is the Hu 121 "Pale Stone" Incidentally, with regards to Troy's last point, Mike Starmer does say post war light stone was not the same as the wartime version, but Jamie at Sovereign Hobbies/Colourcoats does not agree. When I bought my paint from White Ensign years ago they did have 2 versions, but Jamie now only has the one. When I queried this he told me that they were identical but that the BS number changed from BSC 61 to BSC 361 under the more recent BS references which Mike also mentions. I have no idea which of them is correct but paint from both old and new versions looks very similar to my eye.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Pete

Edited February 15, 2022 by PeterB

[Kingsman]

That Matilda scheme, as also previously applied to the A9 and A10 at Bovington, as often depicted by modellers, as called up by model painting instructions and as depicted in artwork, is entirely wrong and thoroughly discredited.

 

No-one knows where the blue idea came from but it is most likely from period colour film with a blue shift which made the Silver Grey look blue.  Period colour pictures are just as untrustworthy as colourised images as colour references because all the film stock of that period suffered with red, blue or green shifts.

 

The official alternative to not having either the Slate or Silver Grey was to use whichever you did have to cover both areas, resulting in a 2-tone scheme.  Not to go scouring dockyards, airfields or elsewhere for other colours.  There were local theatre colours in N Africa, notably the Dark Green and Desert Pink.

 

But we started out asking about Diamond Ts in post-war Egypt. So,..........

 

IIRC, when Light Mud became the base colour for Tunisia and N Africa was split into 2 Commands, vehicles in the Command covering Egypt and Palestine were to remain in Light Stone 61.  So I would go for that.

[bigbadbadge]

Interesting backround Mike, nice kit.

 

[Rabbit Leader]

It's always nice when a model build has a personal connection so its great to see this thread pop up.

As you've no doubt worked out, there's many a helping hand to assist you sorting out those colours so you're in good hands here already. 
Cheers, welcome aboard and best of luck.. Dave 

 

[tonyot]

Not sure if this link will help,......... for post war service in Suez in the early 50`s I would say that they were overall Light Stone. 

 http://panzerserra.blogspot.com/2017/10/m19-m20-diamond-6x4-tank-transporter.html

 

I`m not sure if Diamond T`s were actually taken ashore at Port Said during the Suez Crisis in 1956,........ but they were there prior to the British withdrawal in 1954. 

 

Cheers

            Tony

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by tonyot

[stevej60]

No better reason to build a kit than have a personal connection Mike,my dad served Italy and Palestine with the RASC and he's cropped

up in a few build threads.

[JOCKNEY]

Great stuff Mike

As others have said, love the back story. Best of luck with your build.

Cheers Pat

[Quiet Mike]

Excellent information, thank you everyone! I'm just going through his Regular Army Certificate of Service book here, the only paperwork I have. It charts his postwar time from '48 to '60. 5 years as a regular and then 7 in the reserves. (I assume he rejoined the army after being demobbed from his wartime service)
One line in his 1953 assessment reads "Can be recommended in any form of employment connected with motor transport and especially as a heavy vehicle driver."  He has his driver qualifications listed, BIV, BII and CIII, Tank Transporter (10-2-50).

 

Storm Eunice is hitting us hard atm. My other half wisely suggested I shouldn't cycle into work today, and I'm glad I changed my mind and heeded her advice! One of the large pine trees in the park next to us has already snapped in two, and a branch from it flew past our house down the road, hitting cars as it went 😳  I'm wisely taking cover at the modelling work bench! Lets take a look at what we are working with ...

 

Matchbox Diamond T by Mike, on Flickr

 

Matchbox Diamond T by Mike, on Flickr

 

Nice crisp molds with sharp details

 

Good clear instructions

Matchbox Diamond T instructions by Mike, on Flickr

 

Matchbox Diamond T instructions by Mike, on Flickr

 

Untitled by Mike, on Flickr

[Rabbit Leader]

Nice photos Mike and the sprues do look lovely and crisp, something we all want in every kit we build. Looking forward to the building progress photos. 

Cheers.. Dave 

[Quiet Mike]

Thanks Dave. I started sticking a few sections together, and figuring how best to arrange the sub assemblies. I'm starting with the tractor unit, and it's now getting a coat of grey primer. I think I'm going to paint it overall green, then light stone for all the exterior surfaces. (So underneath, and the cab interior, will stay be green.) I think this makes sense for a closed cab truck.

 

Initial assembly of the Diamond T tractor unit by Mike, on Flickr

 

And a rather cool scratch built model built by the central workshops I spotted at the REME museum a few years ago.

 

Diamond T by Mike, on Flickr

 

Diamond T model by Mike, on Flickr

 

[Quiet Mike]

Cool to find the reference to the box art 😎

 

 

http://panzerserra.blogspot.com/2017/10/m19-m20-diamond-6x4-tank-transporter.html

 

Matchbox Diamond T by Mike, on Flickr

[bigbadbadge]

When I saw the photo of the REME model I thought you'd finished it quickly,  crikey!!!

Nice find re the photo for the box art.

Chris

[PeterB]

Bit of semi-useless info for you.

 

Interesting bridge classification markings! The whole unit was know in the US as the M19 Tank Transporter, consisting of the M20 tractor and the M9 trailer. The M20 on its own was normally subject to a bridge classification of 18 but with the trailer and load it was usually shown as 70 though the way it was worked out and displayed varied during the war. As with any tractor/trailer unit or towed artillery the yellow bridge circle had two numbers - the total over the tractor on its own. the numbers 18 and 70 are roughly equivalent to the weight in tons but could vary according to load, which may be why the one in the pic says the tractor limit is 24 not the more normal 18. Sometimes, as in the box art, a bridge classification circle was applied to the trailer as well - 51/12 sounds about right for a roughly 40 ton Churchill or Sherman (depending on which variant of course - early ones were lighter). An empty  tractor and 12 ton trailer would probably be 30/18. According to Dick Taylor, 70 seems to have been the highest normal wartime bridge limit - equivalent to a more recent Challenger I tank, so the massive A 39 Tortoise "assault tank" weighing 79 tons would have been a problem had it entered service. Matchbox research was usually pretty good - better at times that Revell who botched the markings etc on one or two re-releases such as the Humber armoured car, giving it the serial number of a Universal Carrier and an incorrect Arm of Service (AOS) marking.

 

Pete

Edited February 20, 2022 by PeterB

[Quiet Mike]

Not a great deal to report. With the start of half term my other half managed to catch covid and has spent her week off self isolating. Luckily not too ill, a bad cough and very weak but no loss of appetite or taste buds. I've tried to make a nice meal every evening just for something to look forward to, even though we've obviously not eaten together. Shes done well working in a school to avoid it for the last two years!

 

So, with working and household chores not much time at the bench. Most of the tractor and trailer unit are in primer, and I've splashed on some green to the parts that probably would never see any sand paint. All the wheels and tyres, and there are quite a few of them, are in a NATO black base.

Such a great little kit, I'm really enjoying it!

 

Primer on the Diamond T by Mike, on Flickr

 

Untitled by Mike, on Flickr

 

Lots of wheels! PK-174 by Mike, on Flickr

 

 

 

 

[Rabbit Leader]

Send our regards to Mrs QM and nice to hear you're taking good care of her with a well deserved cooked meal. That would lift her spirits no end. 

Despite life's little distractions you are making great progress on this excellent kit. Well done. 

Cheers and take care.. Dave  

[bigbadbadge]

Looking good Mike, hope SWMBO makes a swift recovery.   

Chris

[Quiet Mike]

Thanks chaps. Tests were positive for 10 days, but luckily the symptoms weren't bad. Isolation worked and neither me or child A got it, so we got our long planned weekend away in London last weekend. (Wife was determined I should see Dita Von Teese, I didn't put up much resistance 😆 And a day around the amazing British Museum.)

As a plus side I enjoyed sleeping in child B's room for a week, and reading old Commando comics 👍  (He's off at uni)

 

As usual my progress has definitely not been rushed, but paint has been applied. I've spent the odd hour here and there just cleaning up parts and primering stuff. I painted the sand on without any masking, and tried to leave the dark green in the places that wouldn't normally be seen, and would be missed by a slapdash RASC paint sprayer. It all looks very clean at the moment, I'm looking forward to weathering it, even though I'm not entirely sure how I'm going to go about this yet.

 

Getting some sand paint on by Mike, on Flickr

 

Getting some sand paint on by Mike, on Flickr

 

Getting some sand paint on by Mike, on Flickr

 

Wheels are a mixture of airbrush and hairy stick, mostly the latter. Again, I want to weather these, but not sure how yet.

Getting some sand paint on by Mike, on Flickr

 

Getting some sand paint on by Mike, on Flickr

 

Still a long way to go. I've set the bar impossibly high and using Neil McConnachies builds as my benchmark 😲  (Is Neil on here? I've not seen him if he is.)  He is creativetimewasting on Instagram. Here is a link to his Diamond T. I see he has made a windscreen for his. Damn, I was hoping to avoid that 😆

https://www.instagram.com/p/BSrb3P3ggSS/

 

 

 

[Rabbit Leader]

Lovely work and boy... so many wheels to paint up! Good to see you out of Iso. Nice update. 

Cheers.. Dave  

[Brandy]

I have to admit that your comment about your Granddad made me feel old. Mine was also an RASC driver, but in Dar es Salaam in WWI!

Always nice to have a personal reason for a build though!

 

Ian

[Quiet Mike]

22 hours ago, Brandy said:

I have to admit that your comment about your Granddad made me feel old. Mine was also an RASC driver, but in Dar es Salaam in WWI!

Always nice to have a personal reason for a build though!

 

Ian

 

Wow, join the army and see the world!

I'm fascinated by Great War history as much as the Second War, in fact just early 20th century in general, it's all so closely interwoven. I got to meet a lot of Great War veterans in my youth, doing battlefield yomps on the Western Front, but sadly none of my family from that generation were around then. I was born in '73 and I think my G Grandfathers were long gone even by then. Like a lot of us I guess, the passage of time does take me by surprise. I keep having that uncomfortable realisation that there are now very few Second War veterans left, which seems hard to beleive. I very much mourn that generations passing. Sorry for being so maudlin! I visited an elderly uncle yesterday, a RASC Normandy vet now a few years shy of 100. He is pretty fed up with all his aches and pains, and I think ready to be 'Dismissed!' from parade. He's the last of my family who took part in the war.

 

Walter and Estelle Colourised by Mike, on Flickr

(If anyone knows of a Canadian Dodge Tipper kit, I'm all ears, I'd love to build one as a tribute to him!)

[Quiet Mike]

Well, what's been going on? Not a lot! Thank god I didn't choose a more complicated kit! As usual, my motivation has peaks and troughs, and at the moment the troughs are bigger than the peaks. it must be an age thing, but I can have a list of 5 relatively easy things to do, procrastinate all day about them, and still get nothing done 😧 

 

Work has been busy and quiet too. Quiet on the paying front, busy on the learning front. I'm a bit of an accidental 3D modeller. I use it to create architectural visualisations, but that work is getting thin on the ground so I've been teaching myself to use Blender, a free bit of software. It's pretty complicated but incredibly versatile. I've yet to make the link to modelling something to then 3D print, but I am fascinated by some of those build threads on here. There are a few things I would like to build that are not available as kits, and I wonder if I can make that jump ... (That Canadian Dodge tipper of Uncle Walters' above for a start! 🖕)

Anyway, I've spent the last couple of weeks getting my head around animation, for an old client of ours. This is about as basic as you can get but still had me going home with a head ache every day!
I've no idea if I can use Blender in conjunction with a 3D printer ...

 

(I used to model this clients products in ArchiCAD as it was all I knew, that was a massive ball ache! Now I am finally getting my head around the complexities of Blender I love using it.)

 

 

You'd think after pushing pixels around all day I'd love to do something creative with my hands in the evening, but it never quite seems to work out. I'm rather worried that once distant deadline may creep up on me now 😆

 

So, after all that hand wringing I do actually have some progress to show. My biggest hurdle has been not knowing how to achieve the weathered look that I want. I have dry brushed a light sand over the whole kit, which is definitely a step in the right direction for the look I want. While I was at it I did the same to all the tyres. I haven't photographed them yet but the two tiny crew are also getting a lick of paint. Basically a coat of khaki and a dry brush of light sand on top. I'll then paint the arms and faces and boots. I've also cut a couple of windscreens out as well, but the jury is out if I can actually make them work or not.

Right now I'm looking for some reference for the wear the tank tracks would leave on the Rogers trailer.

 

Dry brushing highlights by Mike, on Flickr

 

Dry brushing highlights by Mike, on Flickr

[Daniel Cox]

Terrific build @Quiet Mike, it's a lovely kit and although I never had that one myself I remember my dad built it unpainted back in the day. Plus I have also enjoyed reading about your granddad and seeing his pictures, plus I hope your missus is much better now.

 

Wow @Brandy and Mike, the RASC is popular.

 

My grandfather Thomas Williamson (who came from Lancashire) also served in the RASC during the Second World War. He drove trucks and rode motorcycles, and like Mike's uncle he served in Normandy. Driving a truck ashore at Bernières-sur-Mer on 6 June 1944, as attached to the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division. Who he served with till Germany quit. Then he did air-despatch training, and was due to be sent to the Far East when Japan packed it in. In the end although he didn't make it to 100, since he died in 2003 when he was 90. He had a good run, since he had bad knees and lung problems from being a coal miner.

 

So here are some pics of Tom and some of the chaps he served with. He's the shortest guy on the end in the back row for the first pic, and in the other he is standing in front of the motorbike.

 

 

 

As to the First World War, my grandad's father (who lost a leg) served in the 1/9th (Highlanders) Battalion (Territorial Force), Royal Scots. While all of my other great-grandfathers also served. One in the  12th (Service) Battalion, Highland Light Infantry. with another in the 7th Field Artillery Brigade, Australian Imperial Force. With the last one being an AIF infantry reinforcement, who only got as far as Gibraltar on his way to Britain when the Armistice happened.

 

Anyway I was just excited by the fact of the RASC connection and the Normandy one as well. And who knows, maybe your uncle and my grandad crossed paths way back when?

 

Cheers,

 

 

Daniel.

[JOCKNEY]

Great seeing this one come together Mike 

Cheers Pat