Harrier GR1 oversize droptanks

[Dave Swindell]

I came across this photo on Facebook with the comment Two Harriers GR.1s from No.1 squadron RAF on take-off in formation from Luqa Malta on 23rd August 1973 (Godfrey Mangion).

I was struck by the size of the droptanks being carried, they're significantly larger than the standard (100 gal?) size tanks you get in the Airfix and Esci kits, plus they have a cruciform tail that the standard tanks don't have. Given the location I'm guessing they're being used for ferry flights out and back from Malta for an APC. I don't recall seeing any other photos of this fit, was it common?

 

I found a photo of a similar (same?) tank purporting to be 330 gallon as fitted to Harrier and Tornado

http://cherishedparts.com/library/img/www/aviation/330_gallon_drop_tank.jpg

However the 1500L (330 gal) tanks I've seen on Tornados and in kits like the Revell and Hasegawa ones appear to be a more streamlined shape

Has anyone got a source in 1/72 - Kit or Aftermarket for suitable tanks?  @Dave Fleming  @Selwyn ??

 

[Graham Boak]

I used two such tanks on my model of G-VTOL in its desert scheme, but that's many years (decades) back.  Possibly I used 1/48 Harrier 100g tanks as a base, as I don't think that anything else was available in those days.

[Steve Coombs]

Reskit did these tanks in 1:24 and 1:48. Nothing in 1:72 or 1:144 that I can find.

[cmatthewbacon]

I have a vague memory the original issue of the Airfix 1/24 Harrier came with them and the extended ferry wingtips as an option…

best,

M.

[Dave Swindell]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

I used two such tanks on my model of G-VTOL in its desert scheme, but that's many years (decades) back.  Possibly I used 1/48 Harrier 100g tanks as a base, as I don't think that anything else was available in those days.

 

42 minutes ago, Steve Coombs said:

Reskit did these tanks in 1:24 and 1:48. Nothing in 1:72 or 1:144 that I can find.

 

5 minutes ago, cmatthewbacon said:

I have a vague memory the original issue of the Airfix 1/24 Harrier came with them and the extended ferry wingtips as an option…

best,

M.

Thanks for your suggestions so far, I omitted to state I'm looking for 1/72 scale, I've updated the 1st post to reflect this.

[Giorgio N]

The old mould 1/72 Airfix kit came with tanks that were really too large for the standard ones, however they only had 2 fins. Don't know if they would have been the right size for the larger ferry tanks, apart from the different fins

[Graham Boak]

Just to make clear: I used 1/48 100g tanks for 1/72 large ferry tanks.  In those days I worked at Hawker's, with everyday access to scale drawings.  I can't guarantee 100% accuracy, nor that C-VTOL's tanks were the same as these service ones (though I'll bet they were), but they must be pretty d close.  You should be able to find 1/48 Harrier (or Hunter) 100g tanks without too much trouble, and make extra fins from plastic card..

[tempestfan]

35 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

The old mould 1/72 Airfix kit came with tanks that were really too large for the standard ones, however they only had 2 fins. Don't know if they would have been the right size for the larger ferry tanks, apart from the different fins

Indeed it did - but I'm pretty sure they had about the same diameter as the 100g combat tanks; the ones above look fatter. I'd have thought the Airfix ferry tanks to have been 200g, and I think those existed - the birds on the 1971 (?) transatlantic flight definitely had large tanks, so some picture searching may be a lead to pursue. But I wonder whether one would actually need a larger tank for a transatlantic flight than for one to Luqa? Anyway, the Aeromodeller/SMI drawings (by Pat Lloyd IIRC) should feature ferry tanks and indicate their size.

[Dave Swindell]

25 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Just to make clear: I used 1/48 100g tanks for 1/72 large ferry tanks.  In those days I worked at Hawker's, with everyday access to scale drawings.  I can't guarantee 100% accuracy, nor that C-VTOL's tanks were the same as these service ones (though I'll bet they were), but they must be pretty d close.  You should be able to find 1/48 Harrier (or Hunter) 100g tanks without too much trouble, and make extra fins from plastic card..

Yes, I thought that was what you meant Graham, a volumetric scaling of 100 gal from 1/48 to 1/72 gives 337.5 gal and the shape looks the same, so adding some fins would give a pretty good representation I think, thanks very much for the suggestion.

[Dave Swindell]

37 minutes ago, tempestfan said:

the birds on the 1971 (?) transatlantic flight definitely had large tanks

If you're referring to the 1969 transatlantic air race, they had the ferry wingtips refuelling probe and standard 100gal tanks, not the larger ferry tanks. I think the limiting factor here was takeoff weight limits for VTO precluding the use of the larger tanks which required a conventional takeoff. The transatlantic race depended on multiple air to air refuellings.

 

Photo taken at RAF St Pancras prepping for the race, note standard tanks.

[Dave Swindell]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Just to make clear: I used 1/48 100g tanks for 1/72 large ferry tanks.  In those days I worked at Hawker's, with everyday access to scale drawings.  I can't guarantee 100% accuracy, nor that C-VTOL's tanks were the same as these service ones (though I'll bet they were), but they must be pretty d close.  You should be able to find 1/48 Harrier (or Hunter) 100g tanks without too much trouble, and make extra fins from plastic card..

Further to my above, it might not be quite as close as I thought, I've just found another thread discussing these tanks, apparently Hunter tanks aren't quite the same as Harrier tanks, and @canberra kid kindly posted a couple of pages from the AP giving tank details, which give details including dimensions which at first glance look really useful. however if you compare the 330 gal dimensions to the 100 gal dimensions it becomes less clear. The 100 gal tanks with a circular cross section are dimensioned as being wider than the 330 gal tanks but not as deep! I'm wondering if the dimensions are for a crated spare, and it comes crated on it's side with a pylon attached? I can't think of any other explanation of this anomaly

@NG899, @sloegin57 Nick / Dennis any thoughts on this or a source for the tanks in 1/72?

 

Edit:- the thread is here

 

 

[Dave Fleming]

The original Airfix 1/72 kit had them, not sure of the dimension issue as it's been 35 years since I last looked at them, but they were missing the upper fins. You might recall Spencer Pollard had a pair made for his big 1/24 T2 conversion a few years back (That T2, probably on the same Malta deployment, was one of the few users of ferry tips I've seen in service)- I think he got the dimensions form the ones at the Norwich museum

 

The big tanks weren't very common in use, but you did see them- used for ferry flights between Med and Germany, the Sea Harrier deliveries to India used them, they were used on the Gr3s to Ascension and the Task force (On the flight to Hermes they carried the 100 gallon tanks on the outer pylons, the 330s on the inner ones. the big ones were dropped before landing, although John Farley had operated a GR1 with big tanks off Delado years before) - I've even seen them on USMC AV-8A, although they more commonly used the Aero tanks (as per A4, AV-8B)

 

There have been a couple of aftermarket manufacturers have done them, but i don't think any are in production at the moment

 

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Dave Fleming

[Dave Fleming]

As an aside, re Hunter tanks - Sea harrier 190 gallon tank were made from repurposed Hunter 230 gallon ones

[TimB]

The larger tanks were still used for ferrying GR3s in the 83-86 timeframe.  They were unpopular as the weight of the full tank exacerbased the risk of air leaks and blockages so fuel would not feed.  In one case, a 4 Sqn jet returning from Deci had to punch off the tanks near Nice due to fuel imbalance (one full, one empty).  Only one tank went on the first attempt, leaving an even worse imbalance.  Luckily it went on the second jettison selection, otherwise it would have been a Martin-Baker let-down into Nice Harbour...

[Fat fingers]

Ah,  big jugs, bloody heavy things!

[RAGATIGER]

Hi there

 

Please allow me to ask this silly question I always under the impression that those fuel tanks were the ones used by the Harrier GR3/Sea Harrier during the reinforcement of the Task Force Air Wing during the Falklands War in 1982

 

So please tell me if I was wrong and please don't laught too much

 

Regards

 

Armando 

[Hook]

I don't think the big tanks were used for anything else than ferry flights with zero chance of anyone shooting at you.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Richard E]

There's no such thing as a silly question:

 

13 hours ago, RAGATIGER said:

Please allow me to ask this silly question I always under the impression that those fuel tanks were the ones used by the Harrier GR3/Sea Harrier during the reinforcement of the Task Force Air Wing during the Falklands War in 1982

 

And the answer to your question is in Dave Fleming's earlier post:

 

On 2/11/2022 at 11:21 AM, Dave Fleming said:

The big tanks weren't very common in use, but you did see them- used for ferry flights between Med and Germany, the Sea Harrier deliveries to India used them, they were used on the Gr3s to Ascension and the Task force

 

Hope this helps

[Dave Fleming]

15 hours ago, RAGATIGER said:

Hi there

 

Please allow me to ask this silly question I always under the impression that those fuel tanks were the ones used by the Harrier GR3/Sea Harrier during the reinforcement of the Task Force Air Wing during the Falklands War in 1982

 

So please tell me if I was wrong and please don't laught too much

 

Regards

 

Armando 

 

GR3s yes, Sea Harriers didn't use them. The GR3s that were flown from Ascension direct to the Task Force used them. If you look at pictures taken on Ascension, you can see them, including AIM9s fitted to some of the aircraft used for temp air defence there.until the F4s arrived

 

You can see the 4 tank fit here (Outer ones were 'dry')

 

Armed and on alert

 

 

 

 

One of the other occasions they were used was on 1417 Flight in Belize, in case of evacuation to the US due to Hurricanes, or ferry back to the UK. This saw at least one have a sharkmouth applied to the tank. I think the last RAF use of the tanks was the return of 1417 to the UK

 

https://www.airfighters.com/photo/32496/M/UK-Air-Force/Hawker-Siddeley-Harrier-GR3/XZ964/

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Dave Fleming

[Dave Fleming]

Not just No 1 in Belize

 

[Hook]

7 hours ago, Hook said:

I don't think the big tanks were used for anything else than ferry flights with zero chance of anyone shooting at you.

Annnnd I'm proven wrong. 😎

 

@Dave Fleming great pics!

[Fat fingers]

I served 6 years on 1(f) sqd as an armourer, and we only ever fitted them as ferry tanks.

[Dave Fleming]

14 minutes ago, Hook said:

Annnnd I'm proven wrong. 😎

 

@Dave Fleming great pics!

The only 'threat' were Argentine 707s, so not a lot of ACM called for

[exdraken]

We need those tanks in 1/48 now I fear !

An Ascension defender with white ? G-model? Sidewinders actually cries for a further Kinetic model

 

 

[Dave Swindell]

Thanks for all the chat and especially the photo's @Dave Fleming. Whilst the use of these tanks wasn't common, they've been used more frequently than I'd thought, the 4 tank setup is tempting...

Dave also gave me a tipoff for a source of these tanks, and I'm pleased to say I now have a set on the way to me,  

Tim Perry (PP Aeroparts) designed a set of these for 3d printing and has a few sets left in 1/72 (£10) and 1/48 (£15) plus P&P.

If anyone else is interested, he can be contacted via his website http://flyingstartmodels.com/index.html 

Note they're not listed, but are available on request whilst he still has stock.