1/72 P-51B/C comparison

[Tbolt]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

As the wing was completely filled and smoothed, there should be no rivet detail.

 

Of course not, that's why I said it's strange the fuselage has no rivets but the ailerons, flaps and fuel tank panels do have. I never said anything about the rest of the wing.

[72modeler]

11 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

As the wing was completely filled and smoothed, there should be no rivet detail.

That is not a exactly a correct statement. The fuel tank covers, located on the bottom of all Mustang variants  were removable to allow access to the tanks for repair/replacement. The covers were secured to the wing by means of  rivets, which were not of the flush type. These covers were not filled or painted with silver paint on bare metal Mustangs, but were painted with neutral grey paint on camouflaged P-51B's. You can see the tank covers on pp 57 and 79 of Production Line to Frontline, North American's P-51 Mustang, an Osprey book. From the text that described the fuel tank covers: 'Made of 24ST aluminum, the stress doors offered access to the wing fuel tanks, while also forming an essential part of the wing structure.' In the photo you can see the unpainted tank cover with numerous securing rivets, as well as the surrounding panels that had surfacer/filler applied. The ailerons, flaps, the panels that secured the two stiffeners seen ahead of each aileron, as well as some access panels on  the wings were riveted and not filled . Not an aeronautical engineer, but maybe because these structures were well aft of the area most affected on the laminar flow wing, there was not the same need for a smooth surface. There have been a couple of posts here on BM, one by me, IIRC that show the areas of a Mustang that were  covered with filler, surfacer, or were left unpainted, and the fuel tank covers as well as the ailerons and flaps are shown as being unpainted. There are also several photos in the book that show Allison and Merlin high back Mustangs being assembled that clearly show the various unpainted panels on the wings.

 

I  believe Arma faithfully duplicated these areas, and even the old 1/72 Monogram P-51B kit correctly depicted the fuel tank covers on the lower wing correctly with non flush rivets. I have attached a link to an excellent P-51C being restored to represent CBI ace Don Lopez' mount, "Lope's Hope."' Sadly, Don passed away before the first flight, although he did get to sit in her when he would visit the restoration in progress.  I offer it as it shows many areas not normally photographed; in the photos that show the wing being painted, you can see the fuel tank covers have been correctly masked off to prevent them being painted over.

Mike

 

https://warbirdsnews.com/warbird-restorations/texas-flying-legends-p-51c-restoration-report-junejuly-2017.html

 

another diagram- for the P-51D, but the same areas would apply on the earlier variants

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/done-1-48-p-51b-lambie-ii-allied-manufactured-aircraft.42699/page-3

 

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by 72modeler
added text and link, corrected spelling

[Graham Boak]

Interesting.  You are quite right that areas aft on the wing are much less important than those near the leading edge, although raised rivets would still seem undesirable.

[Tbolt]

35 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

I  believe Arma faithfully duplicated these areas, and even the old 1/72 Monogram P-51B kit correctly depicted the fuel tank covers on the lower wing correctly with non flush rivets.

 

 

But not on the fuselage which was my point. It reminds me of the Tamiya P-47 where they depicted the rivets on all the control surfaces but no where else.

 

Not that it's a big deal, just strange, my eyes struggle to see them when the kit is built nowadays anyway 🥸

 

[John Thompson]

@Graham Boak  @Tbolt  @72modeler

 

 

John

[Tbolt]

When I build this Mustang back in 2003 I got it a bit wrong and didn't fill the outmost panel lines on the wing. 

 

 

 

I can't remember what my reference was back then, maybe this one?

 

 

 

Anyway wish I some of the reference and photos we have now were available when I did it back then.

 

 

Not that it matters that much as they are visible on the aircraft, so yes if the putty wasn't maintained they can show. A good excuse for doing a sloppy job of filling on your model 😉

 

 

 

[John Thompson]

 

Thanks for that, @Tbolt; I think "Vellunite" is more likely to be correct than "Vellutine" - I don't think some kind of pastry cream would stand up for long under operating/combat conditions. Although the results from Googling "Vellunite" were rather disturbing...

 

And here's another take on an application drawing:

More info and photos here:

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/done-1-48-p-51b-lambie-ii-allied-manufactured-aircraft.42699/page-3

 

John

[72modeler]

2 hours ago, John Thompson said:

@Graham Boak  @Tbolt  @72modeler

 

 

John

Yep, that's one of the ones posted in an earlier discussion, along with a similar diagram for the lower surfaces.

Mike

[72modeler]

8 hours ago, Tbolt said:

It reminds me of the Tamiya P-47 where they depicted the rivets on all the control surfaces but no where else.

TB,

 

Haven't looked at my 1/72 Tamiya Jugs in a while- are the rivets on the control surfaces flush or domed? On the real P-47, I think the control surfaces were flush riveted- see the linked photo of the ailerons on  razorback P-47D being restored. Are the rivets on the Tamiya Jug's control surfaces done as  recessed indentations?

Sorry for the thread drift- we can take this discussion to a new topic. 

Mike

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hayward/p-47d_thunderbolt/images/p-47d_thunderbolt_07_of_20.jpg

[zigster]

Question of @Tbolt were not answered, and I think no-one can answer this.

After all it it "take it, or leave".

One can take a nail and a hammer, and punch all the "rivets" they want 😅

That's how they look on all models, don't they?

zig

 

 

[Tbolt]

5 hours ago, 72modeler said:

TB,

 

Haven't looked at my 1/72 Tamiya Jugs in a while- are the rivets on the control surfaces flush or domed? On the real P-47, I think the control surfaces were flush riveted- see the linked photo of the ailerons on  razorback P-47D being restored. Are the rivets on the Tamiya Jug's control surfaces done as  recessed indentations?

Sorry for the thread drift- we can take this discussion to a new topic. 

Mike

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hayward/p-47d_thunderbolt/images/p-47d_thunderbolt_07_of_20.jpg

 

Tamiya's P-47 has "rivet holes' on the control surfaces and yes the real thing are flush riveted. If you look at my Tamiya P-51D above you'll see they did the same thing as Arma with the Mustang, they riveted the flaps and ailerons but not the fuselage.

[Tbolt]

3 hours ago, zigster said:

Question of @Tbolt were not answered, and I think no-one can answer this.

After all it it "take it, or leave".

One can take a nail and a hammer, and punch all the "rivets" they want 😅

That's how they look on all models, don't they?

zig

 

 

 

I'm not a fan of "rivet holes" in the smaller scales but how else would you be able to represent them in such a small scale?

 

Having a closer look at Arma's ailerons they've got raised rivets on the back part and they are the finest raised rivets I've seen on a model. I wish Eduard's Spit Mk.I/V had the raised rivets this fine.

 

 

[FinnAndersen]

21 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

I'm not a fan of "rivet holes" in the smaller scales but how else would you be able to represent them in such a small scale?

I believe that there was an attempt at producing some transfers with rivets. Somewhere I have a book with a Hellcat covered with transfer rivets.

 

Looking at your Mustang picture I wonder who would have the patience to make such a set for a P-51. I would be interested as your picture clearly show them on the fuselage and flaps.

 

/Finn

 

Edit: Found the book. It's by Libor Jekl and he mentions the product made by HGW. The book is sold by Valiant Wings, "Aircraft Modelling", Airframe Workbench Guide #1

 

He's quite clearly in another league than myself, but provides much inspiration by his reveals of advanced techniques.

[Tbolt]

43 minutes ago, FinnAndersen said:

I believe that there was an attempt at producing some transfers with rivets. Somewhere I have a book with a Hellcat covered with transfer rivets.

 

Looking at your Mustang picture I wonder who would have the patience to make such a set for a P-51. I would be interested as your picture clearly show them on the fuselage and flaps.

 

/Finn

 

Edit: Found the book. It's by Libor Jekl and he mentions the product made by HGW. The book is sold by Valiant Wings, "Aircraft Modelling", Airframe Workbench Guide #1

 

He's quite clearly in another league than myself, but provides much inspiration by his reveals of advanced techniques.

 

I thought HGW just did raised rivets (how else could you do them in resin? ) ?. But you could argue it's just as realistic as a rivet hole. 

 

But my point was about the manufacturer of the kit, so what can be produced in plastic, not what can be achieved with AM or with other tooling.

[FinnAndersen]

1 hour ago, Tbolt said:

But my point was about the manufacturer of the kit, so what can be produced in plastic, not what can be achieved with AM or with other tooling.

Sorry to have missed your point, but I agree that rivets are on the edge of the possible and to be more precise about Jekl's works, it should be mentioned that it's about domed (non-flush) rivets. 

 

/Finn

[Tbolt]

 

Here's a photo showing the Eduard raised rivets from the Spitfire Mk.I next to the Arma Hobby raised rivets on the P-51 ( click on photo for a larger version ). Eduard's rivets would probably look fine on a 1/24th scale kit, but shame they couldn't have got them a bit smaller at least they can be sanded down a bit as they look more like a snap head rather than a mush head ( and maybe some pan heads? ) which appear to be what's on a real Spit. Arma's raised rivets are quite impressive, though you will probably lose them if you paint with a hairy stick.