Spitfire Vb Trop ER318 274 sqn.

[Threadbear]

I currently have the Eduard Southern Star Spitfire Vb/Vc dual combo on order and looking at the instructions on Eduard’s website, I like the look of the 274 squadron option to use on a part built Tamiya kit. The profiles look very like the standard RAF ocean grey/green upper camouflage colours with azure blue undersurfaces? 

 

Now the instructions state that the upper surfaces are green/green? Now is this correct and if it is, what would the other green likely to be? 

 

Thanks for any input. 

 

Regards Grahame

[Giorgio N]

The aircraft was in standard Dark Green / Ocean Grey. The indication of a second dark green in the Eduard instructions is a typo, the paint codes they suggest in the same instructions are both for Ocean Grey

[Tail-Dragon]

That's a very unusual scheme!  Looks like a Desert scheme partially repainted to a Temperate land scheme on top only, with the upper scheme extended half way down the air filter. 

I'm looking forward to seeing it.

 

Colin

[Graham Boak]

Not Temperate Land, this was Dark Green and Dark Earth.  This was the Day Fighter Scheme, which became common in Italy.  It has been suggested that several types from the Desert Air Force had the Mid Stone overpainted with Dark Green, producing the Temperate Land Scheme, but this seems to have fallen from favour with really only 40 Sq linked to this scheme (although it used to be common to see P-40s represented this way).

[Threadbear]

Thanks for your prompt inputs. I never did check the typo on the instructions with regarding referencing the paint numbers! However ER318 certainly looks a bit different in this scheme with the Vokes filter. 

 

Thanks again

 

Grahame

Edited February 3, 2022 by Threadbear
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[Steve 1602]

That’s an interesting scheme - not least that it appears to be a ‘B’ pattern which seems to have ceased in Aug 1941 on the production lines - ER318 was delivered on 9 Sep 42 so well outside this timeframe http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p041.html

I don’t think it would have been an overpaint of one colour in that case as it would [edit] probably [edit] have followed the ‘A’ pattern. This looks like a complete overpaint (but in which colours is your guess as much as mine!)

 

Steve

[Giorgio N]

2 hours ago, Steve 1602 said:

That’s an interesting scheme - not least that it appears to be a ‘B’ pattern which seems to have ceased in Aug 1941 on the production lines - ER318 was delivered on 9 Sep 42 so well outside this timeframe http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p041.html

I don’t think it would have been an overpaint of one colour in that case as it would [edit] probably [edit] have followed the ‘A’ pattern. This looks like a complete overpaint (but in which colours is your guess as much as mine!)

 

Steve

 

I don't think that there is much to guess about colours: the Day Fighter Scheme replaced the desert scheme on aircraft serving in the MTO and over Italy and this is visible in many pictures, of which several in colour.

Repaints were carried out at MUs and it is known that the original schemes were not properly followed, with some aircraft even showing reversed colours.

While the colours used were those of the DFS, and very likely the correct colors, the application of the paints was probably not always ideal as some pictures show quite dark greys.

Other aircraft arrived in theatre painted in DFS from the factory, however these were probably not Mk.Vs

[Steve 1602]

14 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

 

I don't think that there is much to guess about colours: the Day Fighter Scheme replaced the desert scheme on aircraft serving in the MTO and over Italy and this is visible in many pictures, of which several in colour.

Repaints were carried out at MUs and it is known that the original schemes were not properly followed, with some aircraft even showing reversed colours.

While the colours used were those of the DFS, and very likely the correct colors, the application of the paints was probably not always ideal as some pictures show quite dark greys.

Other aircraft arrived in theatre painted in DFS from the factory, however these were probably not Mk.Vs

So if DFS do you mean that the colours are dark green/ ocean grey/ med sea grey? 
Or do you mean a variation to DFS with azure undersides? 
 

My observation about the B pattern is not so much about reversed colours - it’s the fact that it’s a complete mirror pattern which strikes me as unusual on a Spitfire at this stage in the war. 
 

Steve

[Giorgio N]

1 hour ago, Steve 1602 said:

So if DFS do you mean that the colours are dark green/ ocean grey/ med sea grey? 
Or do you mean a variation to DFS with azure undersides? 
 

My observation about the B pattern is not so much about reversed colours - it’s the fact that it’s a complete mirror pattern which strikes me as unusual on a Spitfire at this stage in the war. 
 

Steve

 

DFS should have Medium Sea Grey undersurfaces and there are colour pictures showing late war Spit Vs in the MTO with this colour. At the same time I think it can not be discounted that a number of aircraft retained Azure or Light Mediterranean Blue undersurfaces, some aircraft in particular seem to show quite dark undersurfaces compatible with the latter.

 

Regarding the patterns, I was not clear: I understand what you mean for the B pattern, my point is that MUs don't seem to have always followed the proper pattern, so much that there are examples of aircraft in B pattern (even if it was not supposed to be used anymore) and aircraft with both A and B pattern with reversed colours. So yes, it is pretty unusual but did happen with these repaintings.

 

Have to say that our Tony @tonyot has recently built ER486 "A" from the same unit from the Airfix 1/72 kit and he chose to represent a scheme where Dark Earth was used to cover the Mid Stone areas, so resulting in a green and brown scheme. As Tony did a lot of research on MTO aircraft he may know more on the scheme used by ER318.

I also have to say that while I've seen a picture of ER486 (there's one in the Osprey volume on the Spitfire Aces in North Africa and Italy), I've not seen any of ER318. The scheme represented by Eduard looks suspiciously a lot like the one worn by ER486 while she carried the A code... wonder if the aircraft they meant to represent was actually ER486 ?

Edited February 3, 2022 by Giorgio N

[Graham Boak]

Giorgio:  The Day Fighter Scheme is usually expressed as having Medium Sea Grey undersides, but in practice the RAF "schemes" applied to the uppersurfaces colours rather than the underside - witness the wide range of underside colours seen with the Temperate Land Scheme, and at least three different ones with the Desert.  At the same time Azure Blue had become standard for all aircraft going overseas.  That aircraft could be seen in Italy with DFS on top and Azure Blue underneath doesn't surprise me at all.

[tonyot]

On 2/3/2022 at 7:02 PM, Giorgio N said:

 

DFS should have Medium Sea Grey undersurfaces and there are colour pictures showing late war Spit Vs in the MTO with this colour. At the same time I think it can not be discounted that a number of aircraft retained Azure or Light Mediterranean Blue undersurfaces, some aircraft in particular seem to show quite dark undersurfaces compatible with the latter.

 

Regarding the patterns, I was not clear: I understand what you mean for the B pattern, my point is that MUs don't seem to have always followed the proper pattern, so much that there are examples of aircraft in B pattern (even if it was not supposed to be used anymore) and aircraft with both A and B pattern with reversed colours. So yes, it is pretty unusual but did happen with these repaintings.

 

Have to say that our Tony @tonyot has recently built ER486 "A" from the same unit from the Airfix 1/72 kit and he chose to represent a scheme where Dark Earth was used to cover the Mid Stone areas, so resulting in a green and brown scheme. As Tony did a lot of research on MTO aircraft he may know more on the scheme used by ER318.

I also have to say that while I've seen a picture of ER486 (there's one in the Osprey volume on the Spitfire Aces in North Africa and Italy), I've not seen any of ER318. The scheme represented by Eduard looks suspiciously a lot like the one worn by ER486 while she carried the A code... wonder if the aircraft they meant to represent was actually ER486 ?

Agreed Giorgio,..... and I built my 274 Sqn model as a Mk.Vc too,....... like you, I`d like to see a photo of ER318 too. 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by tonyot