Polish AF colours?

[Graham Boak]

What do people recommend?  I would normally use enamels, but there is a recent Hataka set in their Orange line which may be more accurate - is this correct?  I recall early Hataka paints being criticised but suspect this was their Red range.  One of which ls water based acrylics (the red?) and the other is lacquer, like Mr. Hobby.   Or have I got this all wrong?

[politicni komisar]

I just painted with them I make PZL 11c .Great paint and also accurate for Poles.

However, I have read that Red line acrylics do not behave properly.

people moan about drying on the nozzle and poor grip.

to me orange range the best are maybe even better than MRP because they are not aggressive.

 

Samo/P.k

[Chuck1945]

I have the set but can’t vouch for accuracy since I’m a PAF color novice, but yes the Hataka Orange (acrylic lacquer) line is quite good. It behaves very much like the Gunze Mr Color acrylic lacquers and can be thinned with their own thinner though I use Mr Color’s leveling thinner.

[Spitfires Forever]

From what ai understand the Polish OD green is a little more brown than the American version and the undersides are a color very similar to duck egg blue. You can find those colors in either Revell's or Humbrols lines of enamel. I usually use enamels for the reasons you mentioned. I have tried acrylics but found it frustrating, even when I am brush painting acrylics if the bottle is left open too long a film developes on the top layer which if not dealt with properly can wreck the rest of the paint due to the little lumps it creates if stirred in. Most modellers use acrylics and have great results  I've been building models since 1964 and too old of a dog to learn new tricks but I do use Tamiya XF-17 for British WWiI interiors because Model Masters acrylic version of RAF interior green is abysmal and I can't seem to find an equivalent in enamel. Anyway, best of luck with your build.

Cheers

[europapete]

use colour coats enamels, or Xtra colour from Hannants

[Graham Boak]

Do either Colourcoats or Xtracolour do specifically Polish colours?  I can't find any listed.  If you mean some specific alternative from either prioducer, please say which one.  I have some score of tins of enamel paints described as olive green, in some form, but all of them appear too green.  It would be good to learn that one or more of them would do - similar comment but less options apply to the light blue-grey.  

[Spitfires Forever]

I used OD green with some dark earth and got the same shade as the Pz 11 on display at a local museum. Once again, sun and general weathering will effect the shade of the paint depending on the age of the aircraft so getting an exact color Is nearly impossible. To with what looks the closest. There are several PZ- 11"s in museums and of course the Polish AF national museum has a few WWII aircraft painted in accurate factory colors which can give you a good idea of the proper shade for your build. Don't get too caught up in obtaining the perfect and absolutely accurate color, it could make your modeling less pleasant. I got caught up in that and as a result built less models due to the paralysis. Nowadays, closer is good enough for me. If ai like what I built and it looks close enough to the real thing I am fairly happy despite my constant fight with modelers OCD.

Cheers

[Graham Boak]

I find the search for the original paint colours as absorbing as any other aspect of modelling - and more so than actually painting the thing!  I agree that close enough is good enough, but would like to know how close that is.  I do feel, generally, that most olives are too green, and that the real paints usually went browner as they aged.

[Ray_W]

Hi Graham,

I did my own desk research on the subject of Polish colours and in the end settled on the Hataka lacquer orange line Polish colour set and was very happy. Thinned with Mr Color Leveling Thinner. 

Ray 

[Ed Russell]

This thread, while appearing to be a RFI, turned into a treatise on Polish colours with input from actual Polish modellers. It may be helpful, apart from the GWR Chocolate.....

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for this, but as a modeller in England with an interest in railways, GWR chocolate is very easy to find!  But as an (L)NER man I don't have it is stock.

 

I note the implication in the article that the olive examples were not repainted Kaki but remained in their original colour.  The question does read across to the P.37 which presumably would be in the later colour.

[Graham Boak]

OK, thanks for all this.  I will go with the assumption that more-or-less any olive green that is too green will do for an earlier aircraft (in my case a P-7) with a reddish brown for later aircraft (in my case P-37 and P-11G), something between Dark Earth and Marron Mimetico.  I'm not sure that I have anything suitable for the latter, RLM 62 and the equivalent Army colour being a bit arguable (and somewhat short in supply with other kits awaiting them).   So perhaps  I could try the Hataka Blue Range, although it would be nicer to go for a single pot rather than a set of four.  Who said this was still a cheap hobby?  I think that I have, at times... obviously without adding up the cost of all my paints.

[303sqn]

First, ignore the museum P.11c which is now notorious for not having been restored with correct colours. From what I can see in photographs the original paint (several layers) was stripped and much of the airframe was then painted with zinc chromate. The airframe was then painted after it was assembled, the hidden areas left in zinc chromate with heavy overspray where the paint came through the gaps.

 

During restoration it was found that the original factory applied paint had been painted over with darker colours, both the khaki and light blue.

 

There are two articles on the subject of Polish colours that you should read. They are in Polish and there does not seem to be an English version. I have an app in my browser that will translate pages, hopefully the links below will show the translation. If not and you have problems translating the pages I can post the English text for you.

 

https://www-modelpaint-pl.translate.goog/2017/06/24/tajemnice-polskiego-khaki/?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

 

https://www-modelpaint-pl.translate.goog/2017/09/23/polskie-khaki-cz-2-odnaleziony-wzornik-kolorow-radomskiej-fabryki-porsa/?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

 

Hataka admitted there were production problems with their first paints. They were very gloopy and the pigments separated out into layers. You needed to shake the bottle and shake the bottle and ……….. Ten or fifteen minutes and the paint was still not mixed properly. The second you stopped shaking the pigments would start to separate, even when thinned. This would happen in the airbrush cup so if you were painting a large area the colour at the end was noticeably different from that at the start. It did not adhere to bare plastic, you could easily rub it off between your finger and thumb. I solved that problem with Vallejo’s acrylic-polyurethane surface primer.

 

I have not had any problems with the orange series. They need to be thinned. I use Hataka thinners but I did try acetone and everything was fine. I use acetone (nail varnish remover from Poundland) to clean it out of the airbrush. I have not tried it on bare plastic, I always use the Vallejo surface primer.

 

The Jadar Shop used to sell Polish colours made by Czech company Agama. I think they were exclusive to the Jadar Shop which no longer list them. They were matched to the original colours of the museum example. Their Polish Khaki is very similar to Hataka’s Early/Light Polish Khaki.

 

Early/Light Khaki is almost identical to Field Drab and back in the prehistoric times of plastic modelling we used Humbrol H142 Field Drab for Polish Khaki. That is no longer available and I don’t of any other enamel paint for this colour. Vallejo 70.873 rack no. 142 US Field Drab is very similar to the Hataka/Agama colour, a little bit lighter. Model Air 71.024 Khaki Brown looks like the same colour with a different name. Lifecolor list a Field Drab but I know nothing about it apart from some Polish modellers use it.

 

Late/Dark Polish Khaki looks to me to be Burnt Umber and the nearest I have found to the Hataka colour is Vallejo 70.941 rack no. 148 Burnt Umber.

 

The blue-grey colour used on the undersurfaces is more difficult being mixed from blue and grey colours. So there was bound to be some variation in the actual colour. There are a lot of interpretations of the colour that range from a light blue like RAF Sky Blue through RLM 76 and RLM 65 and darker. I found that Agama’s light blue was identical to White Ensign’s RLM76. Hataka’s RLM 76 is also identical. Hataka’s Light Blue is darker and more grey. So far I haven’t found anything that is a near match for it. For years the editor of Polish magazine Mini Replika used Humbrol H27 but more recently he switched to H28. These are greyer than the Hataka colour.

 

[Graham Boak]

Thanks.  By Hataka's early colours I presume you mean the Red series, as these are the ones I'd heard about.  You don't mention the Blue range, which I presume gives the same actual colours but in a different solvent.

[303sqn]

I use the orange series. The red series are conventional water based acrylics for airbrushing. The orange series are alcohol based lacquer for airbrushing and not compatible with water. They are better suited for artistic effects. The blue series are water based acrylics for brush painting.

 

I buy individual bottles from Super Hobby:

 

https://www.super-hobby.co.uk/catalog/Hataka-Hobby-12947367.html

 

Advice on thinning, air pressures etc here:

 

https://www.hataka-hobby.com/en_US/n/list

 

You can also download a pdf colour chart.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by 303sqn

[Graham Boak]

Thanks, but as I'll definitely be brush painting, it is whether to try the supposedly ideal blue or the orange, which judging from the Mr Hobby equivalent I presume I can cope with.  A choice of presumptions.

[Ed Russell]

18 hours ago, 303sqn said:

First, ignore the museum P.11c which is now notorious for not having been restored with correct colours.

You could well be right but could you back that up with some references. Nobody said that in the thread I quoted above.

[303sqn]

 

Translation of caption.

 

Original Painting P.11c

 

On the names, we present a fragment of the original sheet metal of the upper sheathing of the P.11c wing. It comes from the museum's example no. 8.63. Which was renovated at PZL Warszawa - Okęcie in 1986-1990. The top, dark green layer of paint was probably applied by the Germans before the plane was exhibited at the Berlin exhibition. Underneath you can see the original olive brown paint (FS30108 / 20122), which was originally painted copy no. 8.63. As you can see, the current colour of the P.11, which is in the collection of the Polish Aviation Museum in Kraków, differs significantly from the original ...............…

 

Polish Fighter Colours 1939 - 1947 Vol.1 MMPBooks

 

Page 19.

 

In 1987 the PZL factory in Warsaw undertook restoration work, which included removing consecutive layers paint coat layers of the sole remaining P.11c. One layer showed the weight data stencilled on the rudder. Unfortunately, at the time there was no technology available to document precisely the exact colours of the individual layers. After restoration the aircraft was not repainted in correct colours.

 

 

 

 Page 76.

 

PZL P.11c serial no. 8.63 is the only surviving aircraft of the type in the world. Its PZL construction number was 562 and it was completed in November 1935. When delivered to the air force it was given the serial no 8.63 and allocated to the 121 Eskadra Myśliwska of the 2 Pułk Lotniczy. Its initial underwing code no was 39-E, subsequently changed to 39-K. It was captured by the Wehrmacht, probably about 8-10 September 1939, and (escaping the fate most most Polish aircraft) it was sent to the Deutshe Luftfahrtsammlung in Berlin. It was probably then that it was fitted with PZL Mercury V S2 engine (construction no 4202, built in August 1935) from the stocks captured by the Germans. The aircraft can be seen on display in the Berlin collection, in the photo taken probably in 1940-1941. The aircraft was armed with machine guns, as shown by by the case chutes fitted under the wings. The aircraft in the photo is probably in its original Polish livery, which it had in September 1939: late khaki, blue-grey wing and tailplane under surfaces, black underwing number, white unit emblem and code no. 2 (the latter looks as if refreshed in the museum collection), and white serial number, rarely seen in 1939. No red PZL logo or weight data can be seen on the tail, just the ‘P.11c’ inscription. The first aid kit marking on the fuselage is quite prominent, as are the two diagonal light blue stripes on the rear fuselage. The Polish national markings were applied on the upper wing surface (asymmetrically positioned) and on both sides of the rudder. Those on the wing under surface lacked the white areas. Photos taken during later periods of exhibition do not show the diagonal light blue stripes in the wing upper surface. The aircraft survived the war and long storage in various places, and is currently displayed at the Polish Aviation Museum in Cracow in non-authentic colour scheme (both in terms of the colours and of markings applied).

[Radar]

303,

 

Thanks for those references. I actually travelled to Krakow in June 2019 and went to the Aviation Museum to specifically see the PZL-11C to take some close up colour photos as I am in the process of building models depicting the history of the Polish Air Fore 1918 - 1945. Unfortunately many of the exhibits were not available to view as the hangars were being refurbished. However, by sneaking around the back of a workshop I discovered the aircraft I had travelled to see, with their cockpits wrapped in clingfilm. The PZL-11C was indeed very "brown" looking. For the subsequent two models of the 11C I built I used the Hataka Orange set with the PZL-11C on the front. Great paints to use with a lovely smooth finish (but you must use the Orange Hataka thinners.

 

A point here, does anyone know then if the Khaki Drab that the Museum's PWS-26 is painted in, the more accurate contemporary colour? The picture below is not mine it is off the interweb.

 

https://village.photos/images/user/f37080fe-643d-4457-a113-a2aa9335a7a1/31c3076a-70b7-4303-baae-729d39562c36.jpg

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[303sqn]

The PWS 26 was also subjected to ‘restoration’. However it looks like the interior may remain original and the khaki does look a darker brown than the exterior.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for this, I'd just realised that I has a PWS 26 as well.  Plus a Karas, but as an older type I would assume that to be the greener version.  It does perhaps raise the question of whether the Romanian examples followed the Polish pattern?  P-11b green, P-11F brown?  I suspect not.

 

I used standard hardware shop cellulose thinners with my Gunze acrylic lacquers - is it really necessary to buy specific thinner for Hataka Orange or will cellulose thinners do?  Also, if I choose the Blue Hataka will it prove equally prone to rubbing off as the Red?  Or is this something that has been fixed since the early complaints?

 

 

[Ed Russell]

Thanks @303sqn I assume from the authors the Polish Fighter Colours book is reputable. Attention @JWM and @GrzeM who contributed to that linked thread - looks like you should ignore the video.

Edit - from the post three down below the video colour IS correct and @303sqn was referring to an earlier iteration of the paint scheme.

[303sqn]

Marek Rogusz post oon the Arma Hobby blog.

 

http://armahobbynews.pl/en/blog/author/mrogusz/

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for a very interesting link, but having been there, done that, I'm bemused as to what we are being directed at.  None of the items seem directly appropriate,  There is a reference on the end of the large photo collection to the matter of camouflage being treated in the next blog, but none match this. 

[GrzeM]

I see I'm quite late for this interesting thread (I'm in the mountains with kids - winter holidays). Looks almost all has already been told here.

 

I'm the author of those two articles about "Polish khaki" linked here by @303sqn from the modelpaint.pl site - and I think all I know is clearly explained there (roughly translated by the google). The other thing is how much I know 🙂 - the topic isn't fully clear due to various shades of khaki used in various periods and by various manufacturers.

PZL P.7a as the oldest of all-metal series-produced PZL planes can be in any of the three known PZL khaki shades (depending on period and if it has or has not been overhauled). PZL P.11c in two later shades. PZL 23 Karaś the same (Karas was produced later than PZL P.11c). PZL 37 Łoś most probably only in the latest, dark brownish khaki. Bottom was most probably more bluish earlier and more greyish later, some planes in latest period (rather bombers than fighters) with silver-grey undersurfaces.

 

PZL P.11c in Kraków Museum is now painted in correct, latest dark brown khaki - it was not produced in this colour, but must have been re-painted during overhaul in 1938 or 1938. The colour was determined basing on good, credible research of the preserved example and other samples. BUT - this painting scheme has been applied only recently, for many decades the plane has been painted in incorrect olive-drab shade used in 1980s overhaul. So if you google photos of this plane you can find both versions, incorrect olive drab (matt) and correct brown khaki (glossy).

 

Very good reference is the biggest preserved PZL airplane part with original paint finish - PZL 23 Karaś rudder in WWII Museum in Gdańsk. It shows the dark brown late khaki very nicely:

 

Both Hataka shades of Polish Khaki are correct. If you don't need to be too precise - any WWII RAF Dark Earth will be ok.

 

Cheers!

Edited February 19, 2022 by GrzeM