Ear protection

[APA]

This could apply to any era. I have often wondered about ear protection particularly for artillery and morter crews but this would apply to tanks as well. Was there an official issue or order for ear protection? I've never seen any crews wearing anything. Maybe a cupping of the ears but not very often. Where they issued with cotton wool? 

 

I'm sure there would be both short term and long term consequences and having a deafened crew on the battle field is not the best for tactics etc. 

 

I'm intreaged. 

 

Andrew 

[Bozothenutter]

What? 😉

[Rob G]

Basically, there was none, soldiers just went deaf. Here's one result from a quick online search - note especially the reply from "Georgy_K_Zhukov". 

 

 

[Dave Swindell]

 

 

[Kingsman]

The Army has recently - last few years - been looking into this in some detail.  I actually contracted some of the studies, must be over 10 years ago now.  Hearing loss is an increasing problem with veterans.  Hearing protection for infantry and other close combat personnel has been problematic with the response time of noise-cancelling devices, and permanent noise cancelling filtering out shouted commands etc.  At one point is was suggested that every small arm should be fitted with a sound moderator to reduce noise at source.  Which has not happened.  Has its own problems, especially with automatic support weapons.  RA gunners can wear permanent noise-cancelling as they are not in close combat.  Radio and intercom headphones provide limited sound attenuation.

 

But in the WW2 era there was nothing specific, other than perhaps cotton wool.  Noting that the Gernan army, at least, trained its MG crews to fire standing over the loader's shoulder with the muzzle only inches from his ear!

[spruecutter96]

On a different (but kinda related) subject, the Soviet crews of the Tu-95 "Bear" bomber regularly used to go deaf, due the presence of four enormous engines, driving 18 feet-long, contra-rotating airscrews. After years of numerous, long-range missions and a complete lack of noise-cancelling headphones, the crews' hearing was apparently permanently damaged. 

 

Still, the Soviet attitude to Health & Safety for the crews of many of its weapons was a bit more "relaxed" than in the West, as a rule. 

 

Chris. 

[colin]

16 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

On a different (but kinda related) subject, the Soviet crews of the Tu-95 "Bear" bomber regularly used to go deaf, due the presence of four enormous engines, driving 18 feet-long, contra-rotating airscrews. After years of numerous, long-range missions and a complete lack of noise-cancelling headphones, the crews' hearing was apparently permanently damaged. 

 

Still, the Soviet attitude to Health & Safety for the crews of many of its weapons was a bit more "relaxed" than in the West, as a rule. 

 

Chris. 

And more relaxed with tatics and losses too 😉

[dcrfan]

I have spoken to veterans of WW2 who mention using cotton wool occasionally so they were aware of the risks but protection not enforced.

Edited February 2, 2022 by dcrfan

[spruecutter96]

1 hour ago, colin said:

And more relaxed with tatics and losses too

If we're talking about WW2, if there was one asset the Russians had a genuine surplus of, it was manpower. I read a while ago, in one Soviet counter-attack, the Communists lost 250,000 men. The numbers involved were just mind-blowing.

 

Chris.    

[Crayons]

If Allo Allo is anything to go by, I believe using cheese ear plugs was quite popular. At least when it came to Madame Edith's singing.

[Panda Commander]

I’ve heard of 9mm rounds being used as improvised ear plugs.

 

As a keen shooter, it always amuses me to see soldiers in action films fire off a few magazines of 5.56mm inside a building, then have a quiet conversation…

 

Panda Commander

[Dads203]

Hearing protection has only just been taken seriously in the British Army - As a young 16 year old soldier 

going through depot in the late 1980's we were issued those yellow foam ear plugs and that was all. 

As you can image they didn't really save you from the noise on range days, we were issued the SLR 

SMG, LMG etc so very bangy indeed.  During field firing exercises they had a tendency to fall out  

without you noticing so you would spend the next two weeks shouting at everyone as you had 

almost permanent ringing in your ears. 

 

I think it was 1992 that they issued the Amplivox green ear cans that fitted under your helmet that made things better, the other 

problem for 432 crews was the vehicle intercom, it would pick up the sound of the engine from the drivers headset and amplify over the

intercom making it rather uncomfortable for the driver and commander. I think they started to introduce noise cancelling headsets in 1998 

for all armoured crews but the 432 was the worse for it as the power pack was so close to the driver. Pretty certain that the Warrior had ANR headsets issued early 

on the lucky buggers.

 

I would suggest that during WW2 the powers to be really didn't give a chuff on noise so it would of been down to the individual 

to make do with what they had at the time, I have seen the empty 9mm cases being used and improvised ear defence  

 

@Panda Commander  You are totally right about the movies, they portray it so wrong, If you have ever been in a confined space or even just 

next to someone who is firing live rounds without some ear defence you  are going to know about it for a long while after. 

My hearing got permanently damaged in 2000 when some muppet armed with a LSW with blanks opened up with a 10rd burst the muzzle being 2 foot from my right ear,  

No requirement for any ear defence during my time with blank rounds, I think that has changed now though? 

 

I have seen the empty 9mm cases being used and improvised ear defence.  

 

 

 

[JohnT]

12 hours ago, spruecutter96 said:

On a different (but kinda related) subject, the Soviet crews of the Tu-95 "Bear" bomber regularly used to go deaf, due the presence of four enormous engines, driving 18 feet-long, contra-rotating airscrews. After years of numerous, long-range missions and a complete lack of noise-cancelling headphones, the crews' hearing was apparently permanently damaged. 

 

Chris. 

Shackleton crews might have a spot of sympathy for fellow sufferers there 

[Phil Evans]

RA gunners in the 70s/80s could have electronic headsets that would cut out the noise above a certain level.

 

The Abbott SPG had an induction loop at the back so that the gun numbers there could hear the vehicle intercom when in a firing position. It would give an element of hearing protection even if that wasn't its main purpose. I think Warrior was the first vehicle to have ANR around 1995

 

Hearing protection was very much ignored for a long time. Tank crews would suffer from the high pitch sound from the GUE.

[One 48]

Just noticed this thread. back in the days and a long long time ago my Late Dad who was 21 years in RAF suffered severe deafness, he started as a grunt, firing range not enough ear protectors to go around, still told to aim and fire ... and Yes, this was basic RAF training back then.

He got compensated, but was still deaf not just from the firing range but other activity's in RAF as you can imagine from 21 years.

Myself, got involved in work in oil rig construction and one of my disciplines in heavy engineering like that is air arc gouging, this was at the old N Scotland oil rig construction yards near Inverness, at that time the noise of noisy stuff like constant grinding by hundreds of employees working with steel 24/7 and and high air pressure air arc gouging stuff in particular was the most intense noise I've ever heard in my entire 62 years, it was good money, good work for our area, but took a toll on our hearing too without a doubt.

Double in fact I am a life long Rock Show fan who likes to have his amp at 11 as a guitar player too, consider your hearing guys, please, its something you will never recover from

Dent let any company, not even the MOD dictate to You the noise abuse you should endure decibel wise, the MOD have a duty of care to protect our Soldiers, Seamen and Airman this way safely, please don't let them tell you otherwise.

Deafness is a terrible thing.

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by One 48

[One 48]

PS this is industry I used to work in, quite noisy As this Engineer says from the safety of his office, Noisy but wonderful he says, LOL.

I doubt he was on site much.
 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by One 48

[Bullbasket]

1964, out on the range in Catterick, firing the SLR, SMG, GPMG, Webley &Browning '38s. All of them go "BANG" with varying degrees of loudness. But the one that really made my ears hurt was the SLR. Perhaps that's why today I have a constant ringing in my ears, and vertigo.

Oh, and the next time that you watch a movie where someone is accurately firing a GPMG (or similar) from the hip, it's a load of bol rubbish. Nigh on impossible.

 

John.

[iainpeden]

On 1/30/2022 at 12:19 AM, spruecutter96 said:

If we're talking about WW2, if there was one asset the Russians had a genuine surplus of, it was manpower. I read a while ago, in one Soviet counter-attack, the Communists lost 250,000 men. The numbers involved were just mind-blowing.

 

Chris.    

I have just started reading "Barbarossa - How Hitler lost the war" by Jonathan Dimbleby; no value given for life on either side.

[scotmid]

Bullbasket,

Hope your hearing damage was picked up in your medial when you left the Service.

[dogsbody]

For 35 years, I worked in an oilsand extraction plant. Hearing protection use was mandatory! And as the plant expanded, it was even more important.

Try standing between two rows of three 2,500 hp electric motors driving pumps that are pumping tailings through 28" piping. Those motors transferred their power to the pumps through large gearboxes that also made a fairly high pitched sound.

 

It's a wonder I can still hear at all.

 

 

 

Chris

[pigsty]

On 1/30/2022 at 10:38 AM, JohnT said:

Shackleton crews might have a spot of sympathy for fellow sufferers there

Well, quite.  Dad's hearing was knackered by being a Shackleton pilot - four 2600hp contra-props hammering away in line abreast with the pilots' seats, and a single skin the only thing between them and the fresh air.  Anyone thinking the Soviets had a uniquely slack attitude to their people's health isn't paying attention. 

[APA]

Well I think I've got my answer! Thank you very much everyone for your answers. It's quite unnerving to learn that hearing was still disregarded even relatively recently. I would understand in WW1 but even in WW2 it must have been a known thing. All the additional comments on civi life are very interesting as well. I let this one run without comment as it did take on it's own life. 

 

Once again thank all

 

Oh and.................... there's always one 🙄😉

 

On 1/29/2022 at 12:20 PM, Bozothenutter said:

What? 😉

 

Please feel free to carry on with the discussion (Mods permitting as it's going a bit OT but still a valid discussion.)

 

 

Andrew

[One 48]

Thanks for topic Andrew, I think it is valid to let everyone, everywhere know at every opportunity how delicate our hearing is.

My hearing at age 62 now is terribly damaged and has been far to early for many many years, its actually quite embarrassing meeting friends in a busy restaurant or pub (covid lock down time provided), where several are talking at the same time in your vicinity, because I keep have to ask friends to speak up or lean closer and sometimes I still cant hear them but give an assuring nod hoping I've read their facial mannerisms right ... Not joking!

Even such a simple thing as one of my younger day activity's, Motorcycle riding, early crash helmet designs had no consideration for acoustics, if you observe professional Motorcycle or car racers these days, they wear good quality ear plugs inside the helmet ... I just wish I'd known back then the damage I was doing to my hearing.

Hearing loss is one of the most gradual things to happen, it creeps up on you but is near always due to earlier activity in life.

Apart from going deaf, one of the most annoying things is Tinnitus that goes hand in hand with this ... its always there but the brain can usually filter it out somewhat, but as soon as its mentioned, its back with a vengeance and takes some time to go away again.

Our ears/hearing ability are probably our most delicate underrated sensory organs we possess, have even had balance problems due to ear problems too, our ears ... our hearing can effect how our eyes see things, have had sort of gyroscopic vision problems too now, this is not a visionary problem per se, but stems from the inner ear.

[Bullbasket]

18 hours ago, scotmid said:

Bullbasket,

Hope your hearing damage was picked up in your medial when you left the Service.

Sadly, no. I purchased my discharge after five and a half years service, so no medical. After I came out of the army, I started work down at Shell Haven for 8 years, and then Mobil for another 16 years. Ear defenders were only just coming in then (1969), so it took a while for them to filter through to us, but they were gladly accepted. Walking down a pumphouse with massive pumps and compressors screaming away is no fun without defenders. 

I get what you say with regards to the ears affecting the eyes. Because of the vertigo, I can't watch TV when the camera pans around a scene, or if someone with a camers is running up or down a spiral staircase.

Yes, Tinnitus is a damned nuisance. Under normal circumstances when there is back ground noise, I can't here the ringing, but as soon as it goes quiet, It sounds as though I have a whole bunch of cicadas in my ears.

 

John.

[Black Knight]

Can I add to the woes?

Training in RAF, early 1970s. Working around Hercules and Whirlwind helicopters, both with engines going full tilt, and then the periods down the firing range with small arms - no ear protectors

Then, mid-1980s to 2007, motorsport photographer, around the tracks in the pits with engines screaming, never wore ear protectors except once

I, too rode a motorcycle, from 1972-ish to 2014, no ear plugs etc.

My tinn is like a gas leak or water from a tap, a soft hissing sound. Listening to certain music turned up to 11 over-rides it.

Doest thou know that alcohol and caffeine can aggravate the tinn? ie, make it louder