RAF Mustang III Pilot's seat - now with harness and radio fit queries and rear fuselage fuel tank allocation

[Dave Swindell]

Well, the Arma Hobby Mustangs have landed and I've been doing a bit of research in view of building a couple of Mustang III's - which seat did the RAF use?

 

The Arma Hobby kit gives two options, the Warren McArthur type and the  (wooden?) Schick-Johnson type.

 

For the two Mustang III's in the marking options the Warren McArthur type is specified.

 

https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/6/9/0/1323690-65-instructions.pdf

 

The Valliant Wings Airframe & Miniature on the P51A-C shows a 3rd type, a metal seat similar to the Schick - Johnson type. The illustration is from the British Mustang I/Ia manual (crown copyright) with a note suggesting it was applicable to most variants not using the wooden seat.

 

Any guidance as to which seat would be appropriate to which Mustangs ?

 

[silberpferd]

There were only 2 types of seat, the wooden Shick-Johnson used on the first 800 Bs and the first 100Cs built, serialed 43-12093 to 12492 and 43-6313 to 6712 for the Bs, and 42-102979 to 103078. The Warren McArthur was used on subsequent planes. Information provided by the Part Catalog manual. However, NAA drawing 102-53009, while confirming information regarding the B model, says that all Cs received the Warren McArthur seat.

 

You will find ties for the RAF S/N scrolling down those pages

 

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1943_2.html

 

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1942_5.html

 

Laurent

 

[Dave Swindell]

Thanks for that Laurent @silberpferd the links take a bit of trawling through but have loads of useful info.

From your info I get the following serial batches for the wooden Shick-Johnson seat

P-51B-1-NA BuNos between  43-12113 & 43-12492 RAF Serials FX848-FX972, SR406-SR411, SR413-SR414, SR417-SR419, SR420-SR421, SR432

P-51B-5 BuNos between 43-6333 & 43-6712 RAF Serials FX973-FX999, FZ100-FZ147, FZ149-FZ197, FB100-FB124

P-51C-1-NT BuNo 42-103019 to 42-103078 RAF Serials FB125 - FB184

 

This appears to tie up with the introduction of the rear fuselage fuel tank as commented on here by @Terry McGrady

 

 

That just leaves the question of whether the seat was replaced with another style when passing through RAF MU's prior to issue.

Was the Warren McArthur seat compatible with:-

a) fitting a Sutton Harness

b) a seat style parachute pack rather than the back style parachute

Most references say RAF Mustangs were refitted with Sutton Harnesses, and the seat stye parachute was general issue, would these be standard on Mustang III's?

 

@ColFord has given some good info on RAF Allison Mustangs, may I ask if you've got any info on the above please Colin?

 

The radio fit is often quoted as being changed for British equipment, but I'm not too sure on this as the SCR522a set appears to be a standard fit on the B/C. As this was an American build of the British TR1143 which was further improved and built in the UK as the TR5043 I can't see a need to change the whole system if the required frequency ranges could be set.

 

[ColFord]

Hi Dave,

 

Warren McArthur seat (as was the Schick-Johnson) was compatible (with a minor modification) to fitting a Sutton Harness - which was standard for all RAF Mustangs in ETO from Mk.I to Mk.IV - and use of RAF style seat pack parachute.  The minor mod was the fitting of a leather 'rubbing strip' to the seat pan side and pan to protect the parachute pack clips and D-ring cable from rubbing directly against the seat.

 

Normally RAF would tend to keep same type of seat as fitted to the aircraft as delivered where possible.  If a seat replacement was required to replace one that had been damaged, usual was 'like for like' or an approved alternative.

 

Any changes in the Mustang III from US to UK radio equipment is not covered in the RAF issued Pilot's Notes for the type.  The radio fit on the Mustang III-IV is not in my direct area of research, but US radio equipment would and could be swapped out on RAF aircraft if required for maintenance or supportability reasons.  The Mk.I, Mk.IA and Mk.II were received without US radios and RAF radios fitted on arrival as part of RAF modifications before issue to units.  Changing from US to RAF radios meant that the RAF radio maintenance sections, and the associated spares and support could be kept consistent and to a lesser number of types.

 

HTH

 

 

[Dave Swindell]

Thanks for your prompt reply Colin @ColFord, that all makes sense and was along the lines I was thinking.

Seat wise, as per manufacture with sutton harness

Presume the leather rubbing strip would be similar to this fitted to a hurricane seat (couldn't find a suitably equipped mustang photo)

 

One think I hadn't considered was the aircraft being received without radios, logical if the intention was to fit british sourced equipment before issue. 

However from the likely radio fits I've found for the Mustang III, they're the same or near identical boxes with different internals, so at 1/72 scale I don't think I need worry about the designation on the data plates....

[ColFord]

Dave,

 

If you go to the first post by me on page 6 of this thread on the Mustang Mk.I and RAF Allison engine Mustangs in general, it has a copy of one of the photos out of one of the editions of the RAF Mustang I/IA Pilot's Notes, that shows the early style seat with the fitted leather rubbing strip.  Very similar to that as you show for the Hurricane.  It also shows some bits of the Sutton Harness fittted to the early Mustang as well.

 

 

In the RAF fitting the UK made and type radio sets to their Mustangs in the ETO, it meant the radio sections and supply chain work was simplified.  Carrying the same radios and spares for Spitfires, Typhoons, Hurricanes or Mustangs that were being operated within a RAF Recce Wing or a fighter-bomber Wing or on a particular airfield simplified things greatly.

 

Biggest difference between the RAF and USAAF boxes would be the external colour used by the two services as part of their standardised finishes for such equipment.

 

 

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

260 Squadron RAF in ORB records their Mustangs systematically as "P51c"s. Can this mean their Mustangs were in USAAF configuration?

 

Examples of 260 Sqn serials: FB272, FB281, FB282, FB314, HB583, HB880, HB900, HB919, HB922, HB929, HB943, HB958, HB960, KH459, KH460, KH463, KH522, KH560 KH573, KH583, KH592, KH609, KH629, KH853, KH919. The list is by no means exhaustive nor complete.

 

Cheers,

Kari

[ColFord]

Kari,

 

Not neccessarily.  The keepers of the ORBs did not always record an accurate description of what sub-types of aircraft were being operated.  Other units ORBs in the MTO operating Mustangs of various marks listed their aircraft variously as simply "Mustangs" with no mark number given, or using the correct RAF designations for the type they were operating, or sometimes their "best guess" as to which mark they were flying.  As an example, one of the RAF units in the MTO flying P-51s (equivalent of the Mustang Mk.IA in RAF service) which were borrowed from the USAAF, list them in their ORBs as 'Mustang II" - because in part they did not know any different.

 

The great majority of the Mustang Mk.III and Mk.IV that the RAF received in the MTO were delivered directly from the USA to that theatre of operations.  As such the aircraft arrived bearing the full factory applied sets of markings and stencils and whatever equipment was designated for the RAF Lend Lease allocation aircraft.  It is likely the use of the "P-51C" designation in the 260 Squadron ORBs is a result of that being the designation for the type showing on the factory applied data block near the cockpit of the aircraft when they first arrived, and that 'stuck' rather then the proper RAF designation.

 

As to the degree of US equipment included in those aircraft delivered direct to the MTO, I will leave it to those who have researched it more deeply than I to respond if they wish to.  (My primary focus is on the earlier Allison engine Mustangs, and Tac/R operations - naturally enough in researching one area you often can't but stumble across information on related or relevant areas if they are inter-related eg. RAF Mustangs generally.)

 

Regards.

 

 

 

[John M]

On 1/25/2022 at 1:07 PM, Kari Lumppio said:

Examples of 260 Sqn serials: FB272, FB281, FB282, FB314, HB583, HB880, HB900, HB919, HB922, HB929, HB943, HB958, HB960, KH459, KH460, KH463, KH522, KH560 KH573, KH583, KH592, KH609, KH629, KH853, KH919. The list is by no means exhaustive nor complete.

Hello Kari.

Would you happen to have any individual code letters for these Mustangs?

I'm looking for the serial number for HS*Y.

John

[Kari Lumppio]

2 hours ago, John M said:

Hello Kari.

Would you happen to have any individual code letters for these Mustangs?

I'm looking for the serial number for HS*Y.

John

 

Hello!

 

Me? Not. But I got help for HSoZ in another forum:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=61349

 

Cheers,

Kari

[DominikS]

I'm refreshing old meat, but have a question. Was metal Schick Johnson seat ever used on Mustang Bs/Cs?