P51 1/48 scale nose.

[Mick_Gannon]

Quick question what is considered to be the most accurate nose of  1/48 scale Merlin Packard engined mustang with regards to size, shape, etc.

 

Regards

[Troy Smith]

I've not seen any complaints about the nose , (or anything shapewise) of the D models by Airfix, Meng and Eduard. 

I think the B/C nose is slightly different, but the only decent B/C in 1/48 IIRC is the Tamiya and the ICM, which is owes a lot to the tamiya.

@Tourist  is a good chap for Mustang detail, but rarely visits.

 

I would suggest that you might want to expand on the reason for your question as it seems very specific.

 

 

 

[Mick_Gannon]

It is a future project I am looking at.

 

[72modeler]

I think there might have been a small difference in the panel lines and the contour where the lower cowling met the wing between the B and D models; IIRC Charles Neely, one of the Mustang experts produced drawings that showed this. I do recall that the landing gear geometry was changed slightly between the B and the D, and that is why the inner fairing doors of the two variants are slightly different in shape and contour, but I believe all of the kitmakers mentioned above got this right on their 1/48 kits.

 

The Merlin Mustangs all had a broad-shouldered contour above the exhaust stacks/cylinder heads that rounded off as it met the spinner backplate- this frequently missed on 1/72 kits, but usually not on 1/48 kits. Not my preferred scale, but  one of our 1/48 scale modelers could be more helpful.I do have the 1/48 Tamiya P-51B and D kits, and the nose/spinner look to be correct-the  spinner does not have the correct  shape to the cutouts for the prop blades, but there are aftermarket spinners that correct this, if you are a real Mustang maniac!

Mike

[steh2o]

Mike, there is a slight but visible profile difference between -B/C and -D noses, C.J.Neely was the first to find evidence of it; it depends on the -B/C firewall being slightly taller than -Ds, and it produces a different upper line of the cowling, flatter up to the firewall, with a distinct "kink" at the firewall in the B/C,

This particular is present also in the -D prototypes.

I would trust Airfix, Meng, or Tamiya (1/32) for the -D cowling. Slightly less Eduard (there is an odd discontinuity between fuselage and cowling lines just in front of the windscreen)

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by steh2o

[steh2o]

Here's a picture of the above, sorry I can't trace who published it firstly

 

 

[Mark Harmsworth]

18 hours ago, Mick_Gannon said:

It is a future project I am looking at.

Oh that's a real tease. Can you give us a bit more? I'm slightly fascinated about this interest in a P-51 nose.

Mark

[silberpferd]

4 hours ago, steh2o said:

Here's a picture of the above, sorry I can't trace who published it firstly

, compared with a D nose

 

 

I think that was me.

 

Here is another compared with a D nose

 

Laurent

 

[steh2o]

Thanks Laurent I save pictures and don't take notes whom they belong to.

[silberpferd]

1 hour ago, steh2o said:

Thanks Laurent I save pictures and don't take notes whom they belong to.

It must be noted that this picture was "borrowed" from Ailrliners.net, the photographer being Ralph M. Pettersen

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled/North-American-P-51C-Mustang/1343424/L?qsp=eJwtjDEOwkAMBP/iGooIQZEufAAKPmDZK4gInOWzBKcof89doJudlWYmSe/AN27FQD1lsMuDdmTs/MrUz/RE%2BSTXymT7Yyf1zMnjXKpQDgwisID%2B/cUV3i5k2Tr31j01hF9/69Cmjtkm3ioIHidalhVCei5K

 

the B/W pictures are originals from my collection.

 

Laurent

[Antti_K]

Great info guys, thank you🙂

 

I'm currently building the Tamiya 1/48 scale "Shangri-La" and I was just sanding the nose. These photos are very helpful.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Mick_Gannon]

Thank you for the info gents, reason for the questions are would like to do a F82 twin mustang replacing the new Allison engined kit that has just come out, can't see Modevist doing a merlin engined early F82.

 

Regards

[72modeler]

12 hours ago, Mick_Gannon said:

Thank you for the info gents, reason for the questions are would like to do a F82 twin mustang replacing the new Allison engined kit that has just come out, can't see Modevist doing a merlin engined early F82.

 

Regards

Mick,

 

You really can't use that much of a P-51D cowling for one of the Merlin engine variants, as the carburetor intake, exhaust shroud, and panels are not the same.(They are most like P-51H cowlings.) I have attached a link to the P-82B 'Betty Jo' that flew nonstop from Hawaii to NY and is preserved at the AFM. Click on the arrow and then on 'download hi-rez' to see an enlarged image of each photo. These will give you a very good idea as to the changes you will need to make. I think the Merlin Twin Mustangs were by far the most handsome of the breed. We used to have a P-82B on display here at Lackland AB, but it was loaned to the Confederate Air Force many years ago and flown at their airshows until a gear collapse, and one prop was damaged beyond repair. Ended up being reclaimed by the USAF and is now on static display at the AFM next to Betty Jo. Got to see the CAF's Twin Mustang fly, and it was a real crowd pleaser! Good luck on your project!

Mike

 

https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196411/north-american-f-82b-twin-mustang/

 

In 1/48 scale, one alternative, although an expensive one, would be to snag two 1/48 P-51H kits and use the cowlings forward of the firewall to graft onto your F-82 kit. Another possibility is to get one P-51H kit and use the nose s section behind the spinner back plate to cast copies that can be grafted onto your F-82 kit noses; then fill and re-scribe the correct panel lines, which should be the same as those on the P-51H fuselage.

Edited January 27, 2022 by 72modeler
added text

[FinnAndersen]

Being a mustang maniac, I lurked on this thread, wondering what the real question was, without responding as I'm quite unfamiliar with kits in 1/48 scale.

 

But I could have given you the same answer as Mike right away, as I investigated the same question years ago. I too believe that the merlin engined P-82 is the better looking plane. Somewhere I read that the P-82 had about 3% in common with the P-51.

 

So next time, don't be shy, we won't eat you, on the contrary, we will do our best to share the information we have  🙂

 

/Finn

[FinnAndersen]

15 hours ago, 72modeler said:

...In 1/48 scale, one alternative, although an expensive one, would be to snag two 1/48 P-51H kits and use the cowlings forward of the firewall to graft onto your F-82 kit...

IMHO the noses of the P-51H and the P-82 are similar, but not the same. Especially the air intake differs. I would have included pictures, but have current problems with Village Photos that prevent that. However a quick internet search reveals several pictures of P-51H's and with Mikes link above, you should be able to see for your self.

 

Pity, cause it seems that the firewall height is more or less the same.

 

Someone, with gifts like Niel of dormant Paragon Designs, really ought to get cracking and give us P-82B noses in 1/72 and 1/48. I'm sure that there is a market.

 

/Finn

[Mick_Gannon]

2 hours ago, FinnAndersen said:

Someone, with gifts like Niel of dormant Paragon Designs, really ought to get cracking and give us P-82B noses in 1/72 and 1/48. I'm sure that there is a market.

 

/Finn

Neil at present is not interested in doing commercial products, there was a post on here about a lancaster conversion that he replied to. But than you for adding some more useful info.

 

 

[72modeler]

12 hours ago, FinnAndersen said:

get cracking and give us P-82B noses in 1/72 and 1/48. I'm sure that there is a market.

 

If you can find them, DB/Airwaves did a set of resin  noses to make a P-82B using the Monogram F-82E kit; they weren't too bad- I had two sets, but sold one a while back; unfortunately, they simplified the unique intake that was so characteristic of the Merlin Twin Mustangs. If a kitmaker decides to make a new-tool F-82, I hope they will provide both noses from the firewall forward, so both the Merlin and Allison powered variants could be modeled. Valom or Dora Wings, perhaps? I have always wanted to do Betty Jo! 

Mike

 

Photo via Air Force Museum

 

 

[Mick_Gannon]

Ok I got the P51H kit and the P82 kit and started measuring up the nose sections, using the detail and scale drawings 1/72 scale and timing by 1.5 to get to 48 scale the P82 fuselarge should be 230.5 approx from back of spinner to end of tail it measures 238.5, on the P51H fire wall to back of spinner measures 47.5(should be 46.5 if the drawings are correct, P82 firewal to back of spinner 53mm, so I have differences.

 

So question did the P51H use the same 2 stage Merlin engine, or were they different types, that would account in the difference in lengths, firewall to back of spinner, can any one advise where to look for better info.

[FinnAndersen]

A Merlin is pretty much a Merlin, at least if we are talking about Merlin engines with a two speed superchargers.

 

I suspect that they could have been forced to mount the P-82 engine further forward than the P-51 for CG reasons. Remember there was only 3% commonality between the P-51 and the P-82. If the engine and mounting were the same, this figure would certainly be higher.

 

Unless you can dig up accurate drawings of both the P-82B and the P-51H to compare, you are just guessing. Which leaves you the choice of faking. Do what you can, finish with a good paint job and nobody will ever know.

 

 

[Mick_Gannon]

Makes sense about the cg issues just need to determine the correct length from firewall to rear of spinner to get as close as is possible, but so far the P82 kit length from back of spinner to end of rudder is 8mm too long.

 

[72modeler]

I agree with what has been said; the P-82 had quite an extension of the fuselage aft of the wings to house additional fuel, so I would think that might also require additional length forward of the wing for cg consideration. No intention of denigrating the excellent Detail and Scale series, of which I have almost all, but I have found several instances where their scale drawings do not match published and accepted dimensions.

Mike

 

Data taken from The Aero Engines of Packard:

The P-51H was listed as having a V-1650-9 two-stage Merlin, rated at 2,280 hp with water/methanol injection

The P-82B was listed as having a V-1650-21 and -23 two-stage Merlin, rated at 2,280 hp with water/methanol injection

I would imagine that both would have had the same/similar coolant expansion/oil tanks as well as intercoolers, so most likely both cowlings/integral engine mounts would also be the same. The -21 and -23 appear to be basically the same as the -9, but with with opposite rotation

 

Hope thus helps- best I can do from my reference library.

Edited February 1, 2022 by 72modeler
corrected text

[Mick_Gannon]

If and it is a big if, the D&S drawings are correct then the kit is too long, however in the D&S book there is a detail side view of the aircraft with station positions on it, from those dimension in inches the overall length, tip of spinner to rudder light scales out at 247 mm or there about's, my first measurement from back of spinner to rubber light was 238.5 mm, STO 0 is 2/3 rd's from the back of the spinner forward, odd place to put station 0, so from that drawing the length overall could be very near correct.

 

Regards

[gingerbob]

I've gotten a bit confused- are you looking at drawing/kit of an Allison-engined F-82, or a Merlin one?  That might make a difference, though I don't think it is a huge difference in length between the two variants.  Sorry if this has all been covered earlier in the thread!

[Mick_Gannon]

29 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

I've gotten a bit confused- are you looking at drawing/kit of an Allison-engined F-82, or a Merlin one?  That might make a difference, though I don't think it is a huge difference in length between the two variants.  Sorry if this has all been covered earlier in the thread!

If you read my replies all will be clear, but to make it clear, I want to model a Merlin engined F82 aircraft as I don't thing the makers will be making a new tool any time soon of the early aircraft, I have the P51H and the F82 twin allison engined kits, from what I have seen I should be able to graft on the P51H engine cowlings with a bit of extra plastic added to match the F82 kit and re engrave some panel lines to suit.

 

Regards

[FinnAndersen]

3 hours ago, Mick_Gannon said:

If and it is a big if, the D&S drawings are correct then the kit is too long, however in the D&S book there is a detail side view of the aircraft with station positions on it, from those dimension in inches the overall length, tip of spinner to rudder light scales out at 247 mm or there about's, my first measurement from back of spinner to rubber light was 238.5 mm, STO 0 is 2/3 rd's from the back of the spinner forward, odd place to put station 0, so from that drawing the length overall could be very near correct.

 

Regards

 

Being an engineer we were trained never to measure on a drawing, which is what you do by placing a kit half on it. A drawing can be enlarged or diminished during the printing process, so cannot be trusted.

 

However, you are safe using the distances given on the drawing.

 

But why are you doing this? I thought that you wanted to stick a pair of merlins to the front of the P-82. If the Merlin and the Allison happens to have the same length from back of spinner to firewall, then you're done.

 

Trying to adjust the length of a kit is much more work

 

/Finn