F-101 Voodoo colours

[wschurr]

Ones I saw in the 70s had interior green gear wells of which there are slight variations like any other military color. I wouldn't be overly pedantic.

[72modeler]

15 minutes ago, wschurr said:

Ones I saw in the 70s had interior green gear wells of which there are slight variations like any other military color. I wouldn't be overly pedantic.

I totally agree! Especially when you consider that tinted zinc chromate, aka interior green, aka zinc chromate green was a mixture of yellow zinc chromate, black, and a small amount of aluminum paste to taste, I'm betting no two batches were the same! Anybody who says they 'know' the exact shade/FS number- you need to back slowly away, as that person is certifiable! 

Mike

[e8n2]

On 1/19/2022 at 1:32 AM, Blimpyboy said:

If you can get it in the UK, I can thorougly recommend True North paints for their FS 16473 (Aircraft Grey/ADC Grey): https://www.truenorthpaints.com/paintstore/gloss-aircraft-grey.

It worked brilliantly on my Maine ANG Voodoo!

 

BB

I would recommend sending them an e-mail first to see if they can send things east over to Europe.  They have an internal e-mail setup on the site.  Since we can't get paints sent over to this side of the pond from the UK, I think it may be the same going the other direction, all thanks to Al-Qaeda trying to blow up airliners.

Later,

Dave

Edited January 21, 2022 by e8n2

[Wez]

Speaking as someone who works in aircraft maintenance, I wouldn't get too hung up upon the exact shade, as others have explained, there are variations (I see this in new parts delivered in YZC), also the paint colour would be affected over time by heat from hydraulic pipes, tyres and the brakes, hydraulic oil from spills and leaks (regardless of how diligent the groundcrew are at cleaning up behind themselves, that stuff stains), dirt from the tyres and brake dust.  All of these will affect the observed hue of the colour which is why in this case, close enough is good enough.

[Giorgio N]

4 hours ago, 72modeler said:

I totally agree! Especially when you consider that tinted zinc chromate, aka interior green, aka zinc chromate green was a mixture of yellow zinc chromate, black, and a small amount of aluminum paste to taste, I'm betting no two batches were the same! Anybody who says they 'know' the exact shade/FS number- you need to back slowly away, as that person is certifiable! 

Mike

 

We have to be careful here: yes interior green started as a mixture of a number of elements and different companies had different recipes, however this was true in WW2. Before the end of the war a "proper" colour with the same properties had been introduced as ANA 611 and manufacturers were supposed to use this colour.. where I say "supposed to use" because we know that companies took their time to adopt the colour and may well be that some didn't bother too much.

By the time the Voodoo was in production however there had been a codified colour for over 10 years, so I doubt that paint companies had to resort to mixing "by eye", by that time they most likely had developed the process to make an Interior Green matching the standard within the allowed tolerances. It may well be that no two batches were identical, but the differences would have remained within the tolerance accepted by the standard and within the typical variations of the specific process used.

What then happens after a part is painted is a whole different story of course, and there's also the matter of how the paint is applied and many other variables.

 

As said before, I'm also not sure if the green used was to ANA or FS standard or what.. I do not have any document stating exactly what standard applied in this case. In the 1986 TO 1-1-4 there was a list for each aircraft that included details of things like wheel wells and stated the colours in the then "new system" against the ones in the old system. For the Voodoo the new system requests white FS 17875 but for the old systems states silver FS 17178.. meaning that at some point the USAF requested this colour to be applied in the wheel wells (that it was rarely done may depend on many things, the USAF TO 1-1-4 itself states that any repainting has to occur during scheduled maintenance and a repainting only to bring the aircraft to a new standard is not allowed). How many Voodoos got white wheel wells is debatable since the type was being retired at that point.

It's also worth mentioning that the document states not only the colour but also the type of paint to use.. the silver paint mentioned for the wheel wells is a gloss lacquer to standard MIL-L-19537... but the document for this standard does not include FS 17178 in the list of colours for which the paint should be supplied. The same document however mentions the use of clear lacquer and aluminum paste to prepare a protecttive coating for metal surfaces. I suggest looking for this standard online, reading it shows a few things about what specifications for a paint are like....

 

Interestingly, for other types the colour in the wheel wells in the old system was stated as... yellow ! This includes types like the F-102 and 106 that we know had green wheel wells. Yellow may be a mistake or may be that they meant "yellow green"... so much for finding accurate information in official documents !

This yellow paint was to standard MIL-P-8585, that covered zinc based protective paints, so at least we know that it was one such paint.

 

One last small detail: in the "old system", the relief tube areas on the Voodoo are in grey to standard EC-1335 !!!! Yes, in the previous system the areas related to the relief tube used a different paint as the type used for the rest of the airframe could be damaged by urine. The paint in the new system is specifically stated as urine resistant, so in the new system the paint used for the relief tube areas could be the same as used for other areas.

 

Oh

Edited January 21, 2022 by Giorgio N

[bentwaters81tfw]

Seeing as I got 'lucky' with an alu oversprayed gear well, I'll make amends with this:

[72modeler]

8 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

We have to be careful here: yes interior green started as a mixture of a number of elements and different companies had different recipes, however this was true in WW2. Before the end of the war a "proper" colour with the same properties had been introduced as ANA 611 and manufacturers were supposed to use this colour.. where I say "supposed to use" because we know that companies took their time to adopt the colour and may well be that some didn't bother too much.

By the time the Voodoo was in production however there had been a codified colour for over 10 years, so I doubt that paint companies had to resort to mixing "by eye", by that time they most likely had developed the process to make an Interior Green matching the standard within the allowed tolerances. It may well be that no two batches were identical, but the differences would have remained within the tolerance accepted by the standard and within the typical variations of the specific process used.

What then happens after a part is painted is a whole different story of course, and there's also the matter of how the paint is applied and many other variables.

 

As said before, I'm also not sure if the green used was to ANA or FS standard or what.. I do not have any document stating exactly what standard applied in this case. In the 1986 TO 1-1-4 there was a list for each aircraft that included details of things like wheel wells and stated the colours in the then "new system" against the ones in the old system. For the Voodoo the new system requests white FS 17875 but for the old systems states silver FS 17178.. meaning that at some point the USAF requested this colour to be applied in the wheel wells (that it was rarely done may depend on many things, the USAF TO 1-1-4 itself states that any repainting has to occur during scheduled maintenance and a repainting only to bring the aircraft to a new standard is not allowed). How many Voodoos got white wheel wells is debatable since the type was being retired at that point.

It's also worth mentioning that the document states not only the colour but also the type of paint to use.. the silver paint mentioned for the wheel wells is a gloss lacquer to standard MIL-L-19537... but the document for this standard does not include FS 17178 in the list of colours for which the paint should be supplied. The same document however mentions the use of clear lacquer and aluminum paste to prepare a protecttive coating for metal surfaces. I suggest looking for this standard online, reading it shows a few things about what specifications for a paint are like....

 

Interestingly, for other types the colour in the wheel wells in the old system was stated as... yellow ! This includes types like the F-102 and 106 that we know had green wheel wells. Yellow may be a mistake or may be that they meant "yellow green"... so much for finding accurate information in official documents !

This yellow paint was to standard MIL-P-8585, that covered zinc based protective paints, so at least we know that it was one such paint.

 

One last small detail: in the "old system", the relief tube areas on the Voodoo are in grey to standard EC-1335 !!!! Yes, in the previous system the areas related to the relief tube used a different paint as the type used for the rest of the airframe could be damaged by urine. The paint in the new system is specifically stated as urine resistant, so in the new system the paint used for the relief tube areas could be the same as used for other areas.

 

Oh

All good points, Giorgio! I guess what I meant to imply, and not very well, was that the grey/green primer used in the wheel bays of the jets mentioned was quite often of different shades. Being an Air Force brat, I got to attend hundreds of Armed Forces day open houses, displays, airshows, and was allowed to cruise the ramps with my Dad from 1955 to 2004, when he passed away.  I have been up close and personal to more F-86D/F's,F-89's,  F-100's, F-101's, F-102's, F-104's, F-105's, and F-106's than you can shake a stick at, and I always marveled at how different the chromate green or YZC looked from type to type and over all those years. I have photos of B-52's (I am a real nut for wheel bay, flap bay, and bomb bay photos for modeling details!) that I took over the years where the "yellow" YZC primer is in at least three or more different shades!, from a garish yellow to a buff color! T.O's weren't always followed, as you yourself stated, and I have read accounts  by former maintenance and paint shed personnel about how they mixed paint, made substitutions, and went with what was on hand to "get 'em out and back in the air." Like you said, there was a range that was allowable, and as Dana Bell has stated on this site before, there are no known instances of a paint sample being rejected because it was 'out of compliance that he. could recall.

 

I tend to do early USAF jets or jets early in their service lives with a lighter shade of interior/chromate green, and later jets, or those that were longer serving with a darker shade, as that is what I recall seeing in person or in photos.

 

BTW, none of the F/RF-101's that I saw in person, other than museum or gate guard examples, had silver or aluminum-painted wheel bays- they all had some  version of interior/chromate green- yet the T.O.  clearly called for FS 17178, as you correctly stated! Is this a great hobby or what? 😷

 

Stai al sicuro amico mio!

Mike

[e8n2]

The IPMS/UK USAF SIG has a page where you can download four variations of 1-1-4.  It can be found here:

 

https://www.usaf-sig.org/index.php/references/downloads/category/27-color-information

 

According the the 1-1-4 basic of 23 April 1964, on pages 85 and 86 which deal with the F-101, no color is specified for the gear bays.  That information may have come in with either the 1973 or 1978 basic.  Elsewhere in the 64 basic it may say what color is supposed to be used, but not on the diagrams of the aircraft.  I have only once seen a copy of the 1973 basic and I have not been able to find a copy for download, but the 78 and later basics are on the USAF SIG page for download.  What is interesting on the title page of the 64 basic is that there was a 15 July 1959 basic which was previously T.O. 1-1-636 and some other earlier editions, none of which are available for people like us to download darn it!

Later,

Dave