How accurate is this Tamiya Frank scheme?

[SeaVenom]

I'm finishing off my Hasegawa !/32 Frank and I'd like to paint it in this scheme....

 

https://www.hyperscale.com/features/2000/frankcb_1.htm

 

One of the reasons I like it is because it doesn't have the usual black anti glare paint on the top of the front fuselage.   The Tamiya instructions say to paint it overall dark green.   I've got a tin of Tamiya XF70 dark green (IJN).   Anyone know if that would be ok?  Or should it be painted dark green XF61.....or should it be Tamiya AS17 dark green (IJA)?   XF61 looks wrong to be but XF70 looks like a good match.

 

Also I've seen 1 or 2 people paint the black anti glare on this scheme so is there a chance Tamiya got that wrong?   I can't find any photo's of the actual aircraft.   

 

[spitfire]

Have a look around on this site, Nick Millman is a Japanese expert.

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2013/11/hayate-thoughts.html

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2013/11/more-hayate-thoughts.html

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[Blimpyboy]

Colours notwithstanding, there may be some question as to the accuracy of the personal markings - an interesting discussion of this aircraft can be found here: http://arawasi-wildeagles.blogspot.com/2018/07/nakajima-ki-84-hayate-frank-decals-and_16.html

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Blimpyboy

[Fukuryu]

More thoughts by Nick Millman on 520th Rinji Boju Sentai planes: http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2013/12/yet-more-hayate-thoughts-non-standard.html.

[SeaVenom]

Thanks all!   Ok quite a bit of info to look through there so I've copied and pasted the most relevant parts...........

 

Naito's aircraft had three kill markings which comprised of a white star with a blue circle in the center and a red tail and represented one B-29 shot down and two probables. The bomber was shot down on January 28, 1945 over Shirahama, Chiba Prefecture, the other two were on February 7 over Choshi, Chiba Prefecture, and on March 6 over Oshima.
The propeller, spinner and wheel covers were in red, the color of the "Kurai Unit". The yellow corresponded to the "Yamamoto Unit" and the blue to the "Tokoro Unit

 

 

 

 From March until May the "Hayate" of Corporal Naito got a personal marking, a hare. The upper surface were repainted in glossy noryokushoku(dark green) and all the hinomaru got a white square surround.

 

 

This appeared for the first time in the September 1990 issue, no. 549, of Aireview magazine. The 12-page article features 21 extremely interesting and detailed photos (before you ask, the magazine is ofcourse out-of-print) which will not be reproduced here due to copyright restrictions.

 

As mentioned above when that first article came out it made waves among surviving 1 RenHi veterans who protested that the "Hayate" with the kill markings was not Naito's but definitely Kurai's. The family of the later even had a piece of the uniform sleeve with the kill markings. As a Class 15 graduate, Naito started training in the 1 RenHi from the end of December 1944, so it is unthinkable that he was able to shoot down B-29s in January or even February. 

 

 

The "Hayate" of Corporal Kuroiwa with the 1 RenHi marking and the eagle carrying a bomb is also suspicious but less than the "hare". The eagle/bomb marking is associated with toko units. It is not clear who exactly and how many graduates of the 1 RenHi joined toko units. There are two conflicting but also agreeing sources.
Model Art #451 mentions that Shonen Hikohei of 14 and 15 classes from 1 RenHiwere first assigned to Akeno Kyodo Hikoshidan and from there to the 57 Shimbu-taiwhich was equipped with "Hayate". On March 30, 1945 the shimbu-tai moved to Shimodate airfield in Ibaraki Prefecture and received their first aircraft on April 10. Training for toko missions was over on May 17 then reached Miyakonojo airfield, Miyazaki Prefecture in Kyushu, on May 24. On the next day they flew their last mission. From the 11 members of the toko unit, seven were originally Shonen Hikohei; their names are known and Corporal Kuroiwa is not among them. Corporal Yamashita's "Hayate" has an eagle with a bomb on the fuselage sides (see FAOW #19, p.79).

 

 

And while these decal sets can be excused for being old, Montex released in 2016 a set of masks in 1/32 for both the Naito and Kuroiwa "Hayate" perpetuating inaccurate and suspicious markings.
 

 

 

 

so am I correct in thinking that the Tamiya colours are correct to a large extent?   From March until May the upper surface was gloss dark green, the hinomaru's did have the white square surrounds, the prop/spinner was red (but there's some dispute whether the wheel covers were red).   There's also some dispute about the kill markings on Naito's aircraft and the yellow hare?

 

 

 

[Fukuryu]

The dark wheel covers seems more due to exhaust staining than a dedicated marking. Regarding the top colour, without seeing a picture I won't venture a guess. Most representation of 520th aircrafts show a spotted top finish, but once again, until seen a picture (they do exist) every opinion remains speculative on my part.

[Toryu]

Some of the unit's Ki-84 had a blotched others a solid camouflage (source: Pictorial History of Air War over Japan - JAAF, p.151 etc.).

 

The reason may be the change in painting directive: Until late 1944 single seat fighters were turned out of factory in NM and camouflaged at depots or on unit level, usually with JAAF dark green. Those appeared blotched, which they may have been, or they just flaked. From then on, the prescribed colour for production was JAAF #7 olive-brown (inside and outside), with undersides in a light cream colour in the case of Ki-84. Those planes appear on b/w pictures to have a solid dark, slightly glossy colour.

 

Sources: Aviation of Japan, Baker in SAMI 2000

 

Cheers, Michael

[SeaVenom]

Yes the paint flaking can make things difficult.   Here's the only actual photo of a Frank with the square Hinomaru surrounds I could find.....

 

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Aircam-Aviation-Series/Nakajima-Ki-84a-b-Hayate/29-Nakajima-Ki_84-Hayate_Page_36-960

 

which appears to be this Hasegawa version.......

 

http://www.blitz72.com/2011/10/hasegawa-ki-84-hayate-pre-shading/

 

the modeller's painted the black anti glare paint but on the real life photo it looks to me like it's all green.

Edited January 21, 2022 by SeaVenom

[Toryu]

3 hours ago, SeaVenom said:

Here's the only actual photo of a Frank with the square Hinomaru surrounds I could find.....

 

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Aircam-Aviation-Series/Nakajima-Ki-84a-b-Hayate/29-Nakajima-Ki_84-Hayate_Page_36-960

 

This picture shows a Ki-84 of the 47th Sentai in olive-brown (JAAF #7 Ohryoku nana go shoku) camouflage with a cream underside as described in my post above. The 47th received their Franks in early 1945 and most of them were factory-painted in #7. The white hinomaru band was fully wrapped around. It's just the shadow under the fuselage that veils the lower portion of the band. With the introduction of olive-brown the need for a black anti-glare panel was dropped but the Nakajima factory seems to have continued applying it. I have a different print of this photo that shows a vague outline of a darker colour.

 

The model linked in your post appears very accurate in my mind.

 

I can only reiterate what others have said: Visit Nick Millman's website at aviationofjapan.com and search for 'Hayate Colours' for a deeper insight.

 

Cheers, Michael

[Blimpyboy]

Here are some more Ki-84s with their hinomarus on white bands:

1. http://www.gahoh.net/traffic/ww2/profile/KI84/photo/1stE_kugisho.jpg  and  http://www.gahoh.net/traffic/ww2/profile/KI84/image/1stE_kugisho.jpg

2. http://www.gahoh.net/traffic/ww2/profile/KI84/photo/2nd_47_sakura.jpg  and  http://www.gahoh.net/traffic/ww2/profile/KI84/image/2nd_47_sakura.jpg

3. http://www.gahoh.net/traffic/ww2/profile/KI84/image/ko_71.jpg

 

And, for yucks:

 

 

[SeaVenom]

On 1/21/2022 at 8:47 AM, Toryu said:

 

This picture shows a Ki-84 of the 47th Sentai in olive-brown (JAAF #7 Ohryoku nana go shoku) camouflage with a cream underside as described in my post above. The 47th received their Franks in early 1945 and most of them were factory-painted in #7. The white hinomaru band was fully wrapped around. It's just the shadow under the fuselage that veils the lower portion of the band. With the introduction of olive-brown the need for a black anti-glare panel was dropped but the Nakajima factory seems to have continued applying it. I have a different print of this photo that shows a vague outline of a darker colour.

 

The model linked in your post appears very accurate in my mind.

 

I can only reiterate what others have said: Visit Nick Millman's website at aviationofjapan.com and search for 'Hayate Colours' for a deeper insight.

 

Cheers, Michael

 

 

So that model's accurate except for the overall colour which should be olive brown instead of the green and the black anti glare is probably correct?

[SeaVenom]

On 1/21/2022 at 9:32 AM, Blimpyboy said:

Here are some more Ki-84s with their hinomarus on white bands:

1. http://www.gahoh.net/traffic/ww2/profile/KI84/photo/1stE_kugisho.jpg  and  http://www.gahoh.net/traffic/ww2/profile/KI84/image/1stE_kugisho.jpg

2. http://www.gahoh.net/traffic/ww2/profile/KI84/photo/2nd_47_sakura.jpg  and  http://www.gahoh.net/traffic/ww2/profile/KI84/image/2nd_47_sakura.jpg

3. http://www.gahoh.net/traffic/ww2/profile/KI84/image/ko_71.jpg

 

And, for yucks:

 

 

 

 

Thanks for those.

[SeaVenom]

On 1/18/2022 at 9:54 AM, Blimpyboy said:

Colours notwithstanding, there may be some question as to the accuracy of the personal markings - an interesting discussion of this aircraft can be found here: http://arawasi-wildeagles.blogspot.com/2018/07/nakajima-ki-84-hayate-frank-decals-and_16.html

 

 

 

 

Ok just read that article again.   It takes me a few attempts sometimes to take all the info in but I think I've got it now.  So basically the Tamiya scheme is not accurate but this scheme is probably accurate?.........

 

http://arawasi-wildeagles.blogspot.com/2018/07/nakajima-ki-84-hayate-frank-decals-and_16.html

 

If that is the case though....why did Watanabe do the scheme Tamiya copied in the original article especially as he was a mechanic and a graduate of 15 Shonen along with Naito?

Edited January 31, 2022 by SeaVenom

[SeaVenom]

I'd be interested to know what you guys think of my conclusions.   Am I correct, wrong, partially correct, have I missed something or are you not sure etc.