Too poor to have an opinion?

[lasermonkey]

Firstly, I'd like to acknowledge that this is probably a tricky and uncomfortable topic, but it's one that I think needs to be discussed.

 

I have seen several comments where people have been complaining of others "whining about prices" and my first thought was that it must be a nice problem to have. If you think that's frustrating, imagine what it's like when nearly all of the new kit releases are out of your reach due to the ever-rising prices. Then imagine that the main factor about whether or not you can continue with the hobby is deemed too annoying for discussion.  I know I "don't have to buy the kit", that's missing the point entirely. I'd like to be able to buy the kit.

 

It's a bleak prospect when your lifelong hobby, one that helps alleviate stress and low mood, prices you out of it. We are in the age of the £20+ single-engined WW2 aircraft. I get that for many of you, £20 is shrapnel and, honestly, I'm happy for you. But please try to be a little more understanding of those a little less fortunate because, trust me, when the "there but for the grace of God" happens to you, you won't be ready for it.

 

Even second-hand kit prices have skyrocketed. Not just on eBay but everywhere.

 

Anyway, I've taken up enough of your time.

Take care and all the best,

Mark.

[bootneck]

I understand what you mean Mark.  When one is in full employ, in my case I had a good income, then I would buy stuff that I didn't even need, but might one day and never did.  Today, being retired and with a pension, the general outgoings still continue and need to be paid; therefore, what is left has to be split equally between my wife and me.  So, the funds are less and the prices keep going up.  I don't have a problem with the pricing per se;  peoples wages are going up, as are materials and transportatation of stuff; so I understand and accept that.   It is that there is all of this wonderful new stuff, produced by new technology that makes them better kits etc., and just out of my financial reach.  Perhaps I was born just too soon! 

 

Mike

[Ade H]

What you have written there is well thought out and absolutely valid. I count myself lucky that I can afford whatever I want for this hobby because I'm only too aware that some people don't have that luxury. I've always been self employed and I've not forgotten what it was like to have some month left at the end of the money!

So I won't think badly of anyone who complains about the price of anything because we all have a right to express that; and there are bound to be some things which I'd like to buy but either can't afford, can't justify, or just think are overpriced. It's only a matter of scale.

[Mike]

It's a difficult one to answer without upsetting at least someone, as the most obvious comparison would be "do you go on Porsche forums and moan about the price?".  That's a massive generalisation of course, but it kind of applies.  I think maybe the reason why people are tired of the complaint about price is that there's ALWAYS someone having a moan, regardless of whether the price is high, low or somewhere in the middle, so it gets a bit "meh" after a while, as does the "wrong scale" and "they should have made an XXX" nonsense.

 

I'm in the position where I get sent things for nowt (other than some short words about the kit - I don't know any long ones), but I do still buy the occasional kit, and they are going up in price, no doubt.  We have to compare those increases with the increases in other things that we're buying on the regular though.  I think everything's going through the roof presently, probably because vendors have learned that people will pay thanks to Covid, so kits going up too is only natural.  It sucks if you can't afford them, it really does, but everyone's gotta eat before they can think about their hobbies.  The kits are also getting more expensive to produce because we all demand more detail and fancy mouldings.  There are so many factors, it's hard to make a definitive conclusion, and even if you do, someone's bound to disagree anyway.

 

We all have to cut our cloth accordingly though, and if you ask someone from outside our hobby, they'll happily tell you either that it's a silly waste of money, or it's not a necessity, so stop yer whining.  You really can't win

[Tijuana Taxi]

 I retired at 55 and always knew that meant money would be less plentiful.

Eight years on and we are doing alright financially, in fact manage to save a few quid every month.

In some ways it makes me appreciate hobby type things more now its not just a case of want it so buy it.

Saying that it wouldn't be much fun to be struggling like so many working households are these days.

I remember when I grew up in the East End and we were considered poor.

Not nice at all and always make a point of dropping something in the foodbank box or when we shop online donate a few bob.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Tijuana Taxi

[treker_ed]

I'm sort of medically retired - so have NO income at all except for a very small allowance that my very generous wife gives me each month. If there is something that I wish to get for myself, I have to save for it. Simple as that. I come from a northern working class background, not particularly rich or well off, but comfortable, and lived in a council house, on a council estate. Not only that, I'm no5 of 6 kids, so a little had to go a long way in our family. So that kind of taught me the need to save if I wanted something. 

 

Food is on the increase.

Gas & Electric to heat our homes, to cook our food is on the increase.

Petrol & diesel is on the increase (mind you that does seem to be coming down a little bit now, thankfully)

Interest rates are rising.

Trouble is, wages are not increasing to match, so we have to tighten our belts that little bit more to eke it out a little more.

 

So many things are increasing at the moment, it's causing all of us problems - something somewhere is going to have to give at some point. More companies are probably going to go under, and we'll be back into another recession. I seriously hope not, and that things turn around. 

[Dogtail2]

29 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

 

 I think everything's going through the roof presently, probably because vendors have learned that people will pay thanks to Covid, so kits going up too is only natural.  

 

 

Price increases are not because of profiteering vendors, most of whom are suffering, with perhaps the exception of Jeff Bezos.

It's the value of your money decreasing because of the insane amount of money printing by central banks.  Inflation.

The system only stays afloat if wages keep pace, which they are not.

It will continue to get worse until something breaks, which in Turkey is already happening.

 

Buckle up!

 

[3DStewart]

I'm in full time employment and fortunate to be earning what most people would regard as a good salary, but I find the prices of kits, especially most new kits too high for me to justify.  It's not that I absolutely can't afford them, it's more that there are other people in my life (wife and children) who are also entitled to a fair share of the family's disposable income.

The prices of Airfix's new tool kits are just astonishing.  Time was when plastic modelling was a cheap pastime and accessible to all.  Now it's not and I don't like it.  I especially don't like the way that kits are getting more expensive in real terms.  That's not supposed to happen. The nature of all manufactured products is that they tend to get cheaper in time as people keep on improving the productivity of production.  So what's going on here?  I would say that kits are being made too complicated, with too many parts, too much detail and too many options.  Leave the complication and detailing to aftermarket/the modeller and concentrate and producing simpler kits in larger quantities so the unit costs go down.

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by 3DStewart

[Jabba]

3 minutes ago, 3DStewart said:

 too much detail 

And a lot of the tme that detail is in the fuselage which is not seen when the model is fully built, so in fact wasted.

[Dave Swindell]

2 hours ago, lasermonkey said:

It's a bleak prospect when your lifelong hobby, one that helps alleviate stress and low mood, prices you out of it.

Whether or not you can continue with the hobby rather depends on how you view and define your hobby.

If your hobby is buying and assembling medium to high end kits, then if funds are short, yes, you have a problem.

If your hobby is building models, then there's other low cost alternatives out there.

There are bargains out there to be had for kits if you get out and look for them.

They won't be the latest and greatest and they won't be stacked high on the shelves (except at Aldi or Lidl just before Christmas) but there cheaper kits to be found.

Then there's scratch building, have you had at the sort of thing the likes of @Fozzy turn out from old yoghurt pots, coffee stirrers, paperclips and a bit of telephone wire?

Have you tried paper models? you've got internet access, if you've got access to a printer and some paper there's loads of models available for free download, and even more available for a small fee. 

 

It sucks when what you'd like is way outside your budget, but dwelling on it is not going to be healthy, look for what is achievable on your budget, accept that this might need a change of direction and learning new skills.

You might find creating something unique more satisfying than assembling another new release wonderkit that everyone else is churning out.

Throwing money at the latest kit and all the extra aftermarket isn't going to make you the worlds best modeller either.

 

Life, and your hobby, is what you make of it Mark, and I mean that in a positive way.

Look at what you can do and what you can afford, and don't be afraid to look at alternatives.

Do stuff that makes you happy, and don't sweat the rest.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tijuana Taxi]

Its all relative though, i've just drunk two bottles of beer that cost pennies shy of four quid.

Footie match at the lowly league two team I support costs about 22 quid for 90 minutes entertainment (if i'm lucky)

That's without the costs getting there and back plus other incidentals.

 

In that light a model kit is actually quite good value when you consider the time and fun factor.

I'm quite into photo printing at home and I always say it costs the sort of money you would only ever spend on a hobby.

[sinnerboy]

2 minutes ago, Jabba said:

And a lot of the tme that detail is in the fuselage which is not seen when the model is fully built, so in fact wasted.

The worst example of this that i've seen, is pistons to go inside the engine block.

Totally pointless ZM!

[Lazy Modeller]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

The kits are also getting more expensive to produce

They won't be expensive just for the reasons you mention, but above all because of the pandemic, and I think most of all, for the incredible price of shipping containers.

For this reason, if this situation continues, the price of our beloved kits will become really impossible for the most of us. On the other hand, if you don't do more, you do less, and it might even be better, because we can dedicate more time to each one. As far as I'm concerned, few will buy since most were bought decades ago and now as I'm retired I couldn't do it anymore...

Cheers

LM

[Skodadriver]

This is an interesting topic and I understand completely where @lasermonkey is coming from. 

 

I'm lucky to be reasonably comfortably off and with a fairly generous modelling budget but even so I baulk at many prices nowadays. My interest is in 1/144 civil airliners and there are very few decent kits currently on the market priced at less than £20. The old Revell A320 used to retail for around £13. The current Revell A320 Neo is £24.95 at Jadlam and £31.49 (!) at Hannants. If you want a 1/144 Fokker F27 by Eastern Express prepare to shell out £46.40 for a kit which retails at 1860 RUB (roughly £17.90) in its native Russia. I stopped looking for second hand kits on eBay years ago when the prices started to become silly. I am now effectively living off my stash (which I once calculated would keep me going until I'm 106) and only buying new kits which I really, really want such as the Zvezda Boeing 757.

 

When I started in the hobby in the 1960s plastic kits were aimed at kids spending their pocket money. Apart from making the hobby unaffordable for people like @lasermonkey the current prices must be a major deterrent to the youngsters who we need to join us if the hobby is to have a worthwhile future. It is beyond depressing to think that plastic modelling could become the sole preserve of the affluent elderly.

 

Dave G

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

My little pip squeak of a shout in agreement. I wish I could afford the newer stuff or even ship kits. But when my entire yearly model budget is equal to 2/3rds of one of my monthly disability payments. Roughly a monthly car note to cover everything I need for a year including supplies. I was very lucky to inherit a stash from a friend last year. This will cover me for a few years with few exceptions for certain group builds. So I listen, I cringe, and hope my fortunes change in the future. The up side is my modeling skills get used quite a bit. Seeing as I work with mostly older kits, not the newer shake & bake types. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Dave Swindell]

1 hour ago, 3DStewart said:

The prices of Airfix's new tool kits are just astonishing.  Time was when plastic modelling was a cheap pastime and accessible to all.  Now its not and I don't like it.  I especially don't like the way that kits are getting more expensive in real terms. 

 

40 minutes ago, Skodadriver said:

When I started in the hobby in the 1960s plastic kits were aimed at kids spending their pocket money. Apart from making the hobby unaffordable for people like @lasermonkey the current prices must be a major deterrent to the youngsters who we need to join us if the hobby is to have a worthwhile future. It is beyond depressing to think that plastic modelling could become the sole preserve of the affluent.

I think you're wrong on both counts Stewart; and Dave, I think a lot of our generation can easily remember the cheap pocket money prices we paid when we were kids and then start comparing them to the prices of the  enthusiast kits today

 

Just for laughs I dug out the Feb 1973 copy of Scale Models (no particular reason other than it was the first early copy that came to hand)

 

The just released Airfix 1/24 Mustang was being advertised at £2.75, and Matchbox kits were starting at 23p  - Airfix series 1 kits weren't advertised as you could get them in every other shop, so no need to mail order, but IIRC they were a few pence dearer.

The new Airfix 1/24 Spitfire IX is being advertised for £95, a series 1 kit is £8.99

 

So the Super kit is 10 times the price of the pocket money kit in 1973, and its still 10 times the price in 2022

 

Average house price in the UK in Feb 1973 - £7758, average house price in the UK last month £268,000, 34.5 times the price

Compare prices of the Superkits from 1973 to 2022 and blow me, 34.5 times the price as well! 

 

Peoples personal circumstances can be very different, there were a lot of people in 1973 who would have found the 1/24 Mustang completely unaffordable, just as people today are saying the new Spitfire is way too expensive

Look up average pocket money for today and you get various answers from £5 - £12 per week, That series 1 kit was pocket money price in 1973, and it's still ball park pocket money price today.

Again, out of some kids price bracket I don't doubt, but eminently affordable for most.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnT]

1 hour ago, Skodadriver said:

 

 

When I started in the hobby in the 1960s plastic kits were aimed at kids spending their pocket money. Apart from making the hobby unaffordable for people like @lasermonkey the current prices must be a major deterrent to the youngsters who we need to join us if the hobby is to have a worthwhile future. It is beyond depressing to think that plastic modelling could become the sole preserve of the affluent.

 

Dave G

I’m the same generation as Dave and I vividly recall a small calculation. My school in 1966 was at the east end of Princes Street, Edinburgh. Home was a mile and a half away and I was given 3d in old Pounds, Shillings and Pence each day for my bus fare home. I quickly learned that if I walked home instead I saved 1 shilling and three pence by Friday. The large Woolworths store in Princes Street retailed Airfix kits and a series 1 single engined fighter type or tank eg Panther cost 1 shilling and 1 pence increased around then by two pence 

 

The same bus fare today is £1-£6 and I suspect the child’s fare is the £1

 

Now looking on an inflation guide site a £1 in 1963 is the equivalent of just over £22 today. 
 

undoubtedly the hobby has become more expensive (that’s in relation to top end kits plus aftermarket etc.) and that is a concern for those on limited budgets.

[Jered]

I think another point worth considering is where in the world things are made and the demand for cheap products which can perpetuate poor working conditions and the exploitation of those who have no other option than to put up with it.

 

It makes me sad seeing the videos on YouTube titled something like "amazing skills" where a worker is doing their job with insane efficiency... But with no PPE in dangerous environments - like a scarf and a straw hat for casting molten iron or a hydraulic forging hammer (wearing sandals) 

 

I think it's a shame that hobbies become less and less accessible it feels like but I also think it's a reflection of the general lack of investment in your average Joe or Josephine and how people seem to have less disposable income generally because of increasing living costs and the rise of the non-essential-but-most-people-have like Netflix etc.

 

You're absolutely right about housing costs mentioned above, they have increased much faster than income. I'll not get into that one though as I'll get vertigo from the proverbial soap-box!

 

I think that it would be a shame for the larger companies such as Airfix to neglect the more affordable end of the market especially when they've been able to offer something for most price points - perhaps they're trying to gain a greater market share in the more expensive kits and be more of a rival to the specialist or niche kit producers?

 

Just my opinion and it's interesting to hear other people's. 

 

Cheers,

Jered.

[Bertie McBoatface]

I don't suppose any two of us are in exactly the same financial position. Income varies and expenditure does too. One thing we do have in common is that we all want some hobby related things that we can't afford. (In my case, that would be a new airbrush.) As the great Zen Master Run DMC puts it, "It's like that and that's the way it is." This makes us all vulnerable to envy/frustration/despair if we participate in on-line discussions, which are often perilously close to arguments, about money.

 

Maybe we should add price moans to politics etc as unsuitable for discussion on Britmodeller? Here's my reasons for thinking that we should:

• There are some posts even in this very topic which, starting from the prices of kits, swiftly head into the dread area of politics to explain those prices. 
• Price moaning raises the emotional temperature of every thread it appears in. 
• Price moaning is pointless in that it does absolutely nothing to change those prices.
• It's never been the 'done thing' in Britain to discus your personal financial circumstances in the mess, in the pub.
• Nothing ever gets cheaper.
• It's really boring.
• It makes us seem really old. ("I remember when you could get five super kits and still have enough change from a tanner to go and see Gracie Fields at the Palais de Dance...")

 

What do you think @Mike?

 

 

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, Bertie Psmith said:

I don't suppose any two of us are in exactly the same financial position. Income varies and expenditure does too. One thing we do have in common is that we all want some hobby related things that we can't afford. (In my case, that would be a new airbrush.) As the great Zen Master Run DMC puts it, "It's like that and that's the way it is." This makes us all vulnerable to envy/frustration/despair if we participate in on-line discussions, which are often perilously close to arguments, about money.

That's one of the reasons that we don't ever mention price in our reviews, unless it's a mention of it being "pocket friendly" when something seems unreasonably well-priced.

 

I don't think it needs to go the way of politics, it just causes a few people frustration on both sides of the coin.  Those that can't afford it can be tempted to have a moan, those that are minted or don't see it as a problem if they can't afford it, get wound up by it.  I just think that if everyone's more aware that it's a slightly contentious subject, maybe we can avoid mentioning it overmuch, and certainly avoid getting into rows about it

[Dogtail2]

How to beat inflation........Buy inflation beating assets.🙂

I'm sure most will be able to work out the year this ad was placed.

[3DStewart]

1 hour ago, Dave Swindell said:

I think you're wrong on both counts Stewart; and Dave, I think a lot of our generation can easily remember the cheap pocket money prices we paid when we were kids and then start comparing them to the prices of the  enthusiast kits today

 

Just for laughs I dug out the Feb 1973 copy of Scale Models (no particular reason other than it was the first early copy that came to hand)

 

The just released Airfix 1/24 Mustang was being advertised at £2.75, and Matchbox kits were starting at 23p  - Airfix series 1 kits weren't advertised as you could get them in every other shop, so no need to mail order, but IIRC they were a few pence dearer.

 

I don't think so.  According to the BofE inflation calculator £2.75 in 1973 is £35 today.  23p is £2.85.  The costs of kits have significantly outstripped general inflation.

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by 3DStewart

[alt-92]

Those days aren't going to come back. 

[Bertie McBoatface]

2 hours ago, Dogtail2 said:

How to beat inflation........Buy inflation beating assets.🙂

I'm sure most will be able to work out the year this ad was placed.

The price of two E-Type Jags I believe. 

[Greg B]

I have a pretty good idea what thread this is in reference to.

 

The cost of kits have always been discussed in depth and repeatedly on here since the forum started in 2007. We are probably about due for yet another Hasegawa thread ref the cost in Japan versus the cost in UK after the importer has been involved. Likewise the same for Royal Mail import charges for when the VAT you hoped to avoid catches up  Its a fact of life in modelling forums. And is repeated; often.

However, whilst mentioning that a kit is a bit rich for your pocket is a very valid comment and may influence producers and sellers if they are actually reading the forum (although I doubt it as they will know the true costs of what they need to recoup versus what the market will sustain), we all have different definitions of what presents value to us and its a very individual opinion.

 

The majority of members on here have both the social skills and awareness to ensure that they would not even contemplate labelling someone who cannot afford a particular kit for whatever reason as a "whiner". Most of us here are more than capable of reflecting on our own present and potential future situations and empathising with other members in regards to this. Similarly the majority of us are innately aware that there are a multitude of reasons for kits being financially out of reach for members and not in any way a fault of that member. I would also be confident that for the vast majority of members on here, on reading another members post saying that a kit is too expensive for them, would not reply with a "sucks to be you matey". But no doubt there will be the "odd" one in the membership who would think that.

But, on the other side of the coin, where would it be acceptable during a discussion on a kit to repeatedly post that it is too expensive for you? The fifth iteration of "its too expensive, I'll stick with my multiple copies of an alternate and cheaper kit" in the same thread, does not actually add anything to the original discussion and has in effect moved into whining and is well on the way to crayoning over the thread. 

Is it going to sway the opinion of the members who do think it represents value to them and who can afford it, to now not buy it?  Or is it going to encourage the sellers or manufacturers to revisit the prices? Maybe its a modelling forum version of the Monty Python -  Four Yorkshiremen sketch?