Universal carrier paint job.

[zigster]

I'm following / observing superb build of Riich Models kit:

And I'm wandering - with so many of those vehicles being build over those few years, did they bother to respray interior in SCC-15, before going to France?

That would be rather eye catching paint scheme!

Hard to say from the b/w pictures.

zig

 

[JackG]

When SCC15 was introduced around April 1944, there was an additional 'memo' stating older vehicle were not to be repainted just for the sake of having all equipment the same colour.   Repaints were justified  only if there was a major overhaul that required a new coat of paint.  So this means not even exteriors were repainted if already finished in the previous colour(s).

 

regards,

Jack

[Graham Boak]

Yes, but it is also recorded that some units ignored this in favour of a common appearance for their vehicles.  Pride in your unit is good for morale, you know, certainly not just bull for the sake of it.  Honest.

[zigster]

Thank you for responding!

I was under the impression, that for Normandy, frontline vehicles had to be painted in SCC15.

Unless they were from US, then they stay in OD.

That would leave out trucks, artillery (incl SPG), motorbikes, field kitchens and so-on in whatever state they were in that time.

I would consider Carrier 100% as a frontline though. Yet, I won't argue for, or against it! Happy glueing!

Zig

 

[Bullbasket]

I think that what Jack says is correct. An example is the RMASG Centaurs. Some of them were still in SCC2 brown when they went ashore. There's also controversy as to whether the Sherman V's used by that unit, were also still in SCC2.

 

John.

[zigster]

I cannot see any reason, why Sherman V would be in any other colour than OD.

Z

 

[Bullbasket]

4 hours ago, zigster said:

I cannot see any reason, why Sherman V would be in any other colour than OD.

Z

 

I can't remember off hand, but when I built my 1/35th RMASG Sherman V, something which I read said that the colour should be SCC2 (It may have been the blurb with the decal set which I think was Bison). To even things up, when I built the same tank in 1/48th scale, I did it in SCC15.

 

John.0

[Kingsman]

Without wishing to go too far off-topic the idea of SCC2 RMASG Shermans largely comes from the original Bison decal set, which had Fox in SCC2.  The later Star version of that set has been revised.  AFAIK there is no evidence, but bags of assumption or misinterpretation.  The only - and relatively remote - possibility is an older tank which needed repainting because of poor condition.  RMASG Shermans were a mixed bag ot M4A4s and were said to be "old", but the earliest one of the handful photographed is still early 43 production and so unlikely to need repainting by mid-44.

 

As for the open-top vehicle question, I suspect that there is no definitive or universal answer.  I can certainly see units not being bothered about internal repaints.  The enemy would be unlkely to see the interior, and if they're close enough to do so then the colour is the least of your problems.

[zigster]

As far as I know, whole idea of SCC15 was to avoid "friendly fire", bringing GB stuff to be close to US OD.

There were plenty of inexperienced, eager, trigger happy guys in US Army (and Air Force too).

I've read, that tankers omitted muzzle brakes on 76mm Shermans, because all German guns had them.

When one has just a split second to make a decision, all those small things count!

Re my OP, no big drama, after all. I'll do whatever...😁. Thanks for your input, Gents!

Zig

[JackG]

According to the research of @Mike Starmer SCC15 was introduce so that lend lease equipment would  not have to be repainted. 

 

As for friendly fire incidents, a huge white star was adopted as a recognition marking in 1944 as well.  This was standard on top location, either painted directly on the vehicle, or applied to a tarp and displayed.   The sides of the vehicle could have stars as well, but not always as experience showed these became aiming points for enemy guns.

 

regards,

Jack

Edited January 16, 2022 by JackG

[dov]

In this case, I have my kit not started yet, also from Riich.

Here is a true story from 1945/46 winter time. British troops in Carinthia wanted some skiing. So the took one carrier and went up to the Gerlitzen, a mountain close to Villach. Just about 30 kilometers from Tarvisio. They used the engine and frame as a ski lift. This was the first operating ski lift after the world war.

The carrier must have been from the war in Italy.

Today the wrackage is still up there. Once I will have a look, but I asume it may have any color.

Happy modelling 

[Kingsman]

I'm not sure that explanation is quite correct.  SCC15 was introduced to bring Brtitish vehicles back to a "green" colour more suitable for the dark and wooded terrain of NW Europe, which had been lost in mid-1942.  A shortage of imported chromium pigments for strong greens and priority for the RAF for remaining stock meant the end of the previous Khaki Green 3 + Green G4 scheme and enforced a change to colours that could be made from pigments available in the British Isles.  This turned out to be SCC2, made largely from ochre pigment mined or quarried in Devon, with Nobel's Dark Tarmac / blue-black / SCC14 black disruptive painting.  SCC1A darker brown was an acceptable alternative disruptor.

 

So SCC2 was a forced necessity, not desirable but acceptable for the time being.  It should be noted that US OD No9 for WW2 was also not a green, also being made from ochre but with lamp black.  So it was also a brown but with a decidedly greener hue than SCC2 (US WW1 OD was ochre and white: definitely brown).  Paint manufacturers who represent WW2 US OD as green are wrong.

 

By early 1944 a new green colour that could be produced in adequate quantities had been formulated, SCC15.  This was always a much greener colour than US OD, despite also being called OD, and was more like the previous Green G4 than the browner Khaki Green 3.  It was authorised in early 44 and the rush was on to implement it in time for D Day.  The time factor was one reason why only "front-line" equipments were authorised to be immediately repainted.  Paint supply was another. 

 

At the same time, disruptive painting of tanks was discontinued - although some units ignored the instruction and continued the practice with SCC14 over SCC15.  The same happened in the US Army, particularly in 6th Armored Div, with black over OD.

 

Whether potential confusion between SCC2 and dunklegelb was a factor I really don't know.  I suppose it isn't impossible and white stars were much less prominent on SCC2 than on SCC15 because of the contrast.  But a milky chocolate brown was clearly not an ideal colour for northern France.

[JackG]

Thank you Peter @Das Abteilung for the detail on the background of the return to green paint on British vehicles/equipment.  Was this from one of the Warpaint books by Dick Taylor?

 

Mike Starmer also makes reference to the return to green, but it does not come across as "the rush was on to implement it in time for D Day."  He instead uses the term a "shift back".  As he explains, the particulars were sent out in A.C.I. 533 and dated March 12, 1944.  Of the point already mentioned concerning repainting of vehicles/equipment in the previous scheme of SSC2, this was not 'authorized'.  In addition to this, if any repainting had to be done, existing old stock of SCC2 were to be used up first. 

 

From another perspective, the First Canadian Army issued the option of three paint choices going forward into the operations of North West Europe, one of which is not even green but a dark brown:

 

https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_t6677/840?r=0&s=1

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by JackG
removed broken link

[Kingsman]

It's a fusion of various sources including Warpaint and Mike's own booklets.  But we are in danger of tripping over terminology over authorised, instructed or preferred - which doesn't really help.  SCC2 was an enforced change and the intent was always there to return to a green shade for NWE as soon as was feasible.  Light Mud remained the preferred base colour for Italy for some months later into 1944 until the campaign moved into the darker more mountainous terrain in the North, when SCC15 became preferred/authorised.  SCC2/SCC1A was also used in Italy, notably on armoured cars.

 

Yes, factories were to use up SCC2 stocks but not on new tanks AFAIK, because priority for SCC15 was given to new equipments for front-line units.  The Final Specification Cromwells authorised for production in Feb(?) 44 were all finished in SCC15, for example.  So were Churchill VII and VIII.  When I said "rush" I was meaning the repainting of in-service tanks and other front-line AFVs still in SCC2 that were to be deployed for Overlord.  Probably mostly Churchill V/VIs as Shermans were already OD and later Churchills and new Cromwells were SCC15.  Second-line vehicles were permitted to remain in SCC2.

 

Mike says somewhere that there is no firm evidence of SCC7 Light Green being used (it has been confused in some places with Light Mud) and I've never heard of SCC1A Dark Brown being used as an overall colour.  Olive Drab in that document is SCC15.  But in terms of tanks, leaving aside other A vehs, Canadian units at that time were equipped with Shermans already in US OD and Churchills - some of which were probably still in SCC2.  M10s and Achilles were already in OD or SCC15.  Sextons at that time would have been SCC2 and many apparently stayed that way.  So it may recognise the knowledge that the amount of A veh repainting required was limited.

 

The continuing use of SCC2 on A and B vehs was re-affirmed as late as Oct 43 in ACI 1496, with SCC14 or SCC1A disruptive painting.  SCC15 was "adopted" as the new base colour on 12 Apr 44 under ACI 533.  But as with the Canadian instruction, repainting from SCC2 by units was only to be undertaken when "due and necessary" and when SCC2 stock had been exhausted.  Mike says that some units ignored this part of the ACI.  ACI 1100 of Aug 44 authorised discontinuing of disruptive painting in the UK but its retention overseas.  However it had already stopped in the Far East and was about to stop in Italy with the Light Mud to SCC15 switch.

 

21 AG issued an instruction in July 44 requiring the painting-out of side white stars on all tanks with "drab" paint.  It further says that "Green camouflage paint is now available and tanks will be repainted with drab in place of brown."  This is taken to mean SCC15, and crucially it apparently does not say "when necessary" or similar.  But it does point to SCC2 tanks still being around in July, several weeks after D Day, and is perhaps a response to the realisation that SCC2 did not suit the terrain.

[zigster]

Well, I don't know. Did German dark yellow was a suitable colour for Normandy?

 I always thought, that idea behind cammo was a pattern of contrasting shades, rather than a single colour.

Yet US choose big volume production in OD, rather than fancy WH/SS paint jobs. Unlike most modellers 😉.

Yet, all those "little" differences make an allied paint interesting.

And I really enjoy input from you guys!

Zig

[Mike Starmer]

'At the same time, disruptive painting of tanks was discontinued - although some units ignored the instruction and continued the practice with SCC14 over SCC15.  The same happened in the US Army, particularly in 6th Armoured Div, with black over OD. '

ACI.110 12 August 1944  might have been more explicit.   Whilst item 1 states that Olive Drab having been adopted as the basic camouflage colour for all army equipments when stocks of Brown SCC.2 are exhausted, dark patterning on vehicles will be discontinued, except as specified in the Appendix to this ACI, Serial I, column (e).    Item 4 is the important part usually mis-read.  'This ACI applies to all vehicles at home with the exception of motor cars allotted for duty ....'  'It is not applicable to overseas commands'.  Serial I (e) then goes on to state that vehicles already in SCC.2/1A or 14 will continue to be that scheme whilst vehicles already in Olive Drab, disruptive painting will be dispensed with.    Put simply, vehicles in UK will remain in either two brown/black or plain Olive Drab.  Overseas i.e. NWE and Italy, disruptive painting continues as before.  Therefore units arriving in NWE could apply disruptive painting using SCC.14 black or SCC.1A dark brown as set out in MTP.46/4A.   Inevitably in time, new vehicles in simple Olive Drab get sent to Europe without disruptive painting and there is less inclination or time to apply patterning so there is a gradual shift to a single colour.  Similarly, units and vehicles in UK destined for deployment as reinforcements and holding vehicles in the two browns scheme went as they were.   On a personal notes: a chap I worked with was in in 15th Inf. Div. field artillery and told me that after they arrived in France the overall green vehicles had ' the top and side patches painted black but something was wrong with the paint as it dried brown.'    One guess as to what that was.