Warhorses, not so big?

[sardaukar]

Hi folks

 

I thought this article was quite interesting, kinda make sense to me as men are a lot taller these days too.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/jan/10/medieval-warhorses-no-bigger-than-modern-day-ponies-study-finds

[bentwaters81tfw]

I knight could be wearing upwards of a quarter of a ton in armour, plus the horse's armour. You need something along the lines of a shire to lug that into battle.

Knights had to be winched onto their mounts. You wouldn't need to do that with a pony.

As for them not finding bones, etc. Horses killed in battle would have been butchered and eaten. You don't waste quantities of protein. I doubt you would bury the bones afterwards either.

Cavalry horses might be a different matter.

 

Don't you just love 'researchers'?

[sardaukar]

3 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

 

Don't you just love 'researchers'?

 

I know what you are saying but I don't trust Hollywood either.

[Vince1159]

I've read that Knights used the then equivalant of Shires especially at Jousts,they had the weight and could take the weight of the rider,if you put a fully armoured up knight on a pony they'd break it's back...

Edited January 10, 2022 by Vince1159

[Nigel Bunker]

18 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

I knight could be wearing upwards of a quarter of a ton in armour

The set of Henry VIIIs armour at the Royal Armoury, Leeds weighs 92lb but this is jousting armour so fighting armour probably comes in at 50 - 70 lbs.

 

24 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Knights had to be winched onto their mounts

Only in movies. On the battlefield if a knight needed to remount there were no winches so he climbed up or was given a hand up.

[bentwaters81tfw]

Plus the chainmail - ever tried lifting that?

A knight on the ground became a footsoldier in the middle of a battle. You needed both hands to wield a broadsword.

[Black Knight]

A lot of myth written here.

A single handed war sword weighs under 2lbs. A two hander or a bar-steward [bast - ard] or a hand and a half weighs about 2.2 lbs

A full suit of chaimaille weighs in at about 60lbs. Just the byrnie [jacket] and coif [head covering] weighs about 30lbs 

A war shield weighs in at about 11lbs

A great helm weighs in at between 5 and 10lbs depending on style

I use to do demos wearing all that. In the demos I used to run across a field jumping obstacles and then get on a horse [the horse was a fibreglass one though]

Plate armour was actually about the same weight as chainmaille

 

Until recently, the total amount which could be carried by the British Soldier was determined by the amount of gear that a medieval knight had to wear and carry, ie about 85 lbs

 

The destrier [old french for 'destroyer'] horse was almost the size of a Shire horse. It was trained to kill with its hooves. There are plenty of accurate paintings and descriptions of these horses from the greater medieval period which proves their size

 

This is me and no.1 son fighting. We used to chase each other around the castle before the fight. In this we're not wearing the chainmaille leggings and we'd tossed our helms to the side - actually a sword blow from no.1 took mine off, flying into the spectators

[Black Knight]

Oh, I'll add; a medieval knight had at least 4 types of horses

1, his war horse, the destrier

2. a palfrey for everyday riding, his going-to-Church horse

3. a courser, or hunter, for, umm hunting. The courser could also be used for light fighting duties

4. a rouncey, an all rounder, sometimes used as a pack-horse

[sardaukar]

Isnt the winch a myth because good old Henry the VIII was a bit too chonky and unfit to mount his horse wearing armour and this was not the norm for a trained knight of the day.

 

Also the article only talks about the height of the horses not that they actually were ponies. I imagine build differs a lot between breeds.

[Black Knight]

The winch myth was from an old Hollywood film

Old Henry 8 was a very fit man in is earlier days and could easily get on a horse and out ride many of his courtiers. By mid-life he'd given up tournaments, then he put the weight on

[malpaso]

55 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

 

This is me and no.1 son fighting. We used to chase each other around the castle before the fight. In this we're not wearing the chainmaille leggings and we'd tossed our helms to the side - actually a sword blow from no.1 took mine off, flying into the spectators

That's one way of sorting out family arguments!

[Black Knight]

This is a mate of mine wearing some of his plate armour. It was made by an armourer based at the Royal Armouries. It was made true to style and weight. My friend had to fly over about once a month for trial fitting of the parts. In the end the full suit weighed in at about 70lbs. At events my friend used to run around, climb obstacles, fight and get onto his horse wearing this. All to dispel the myths created by Hollywod films

Sorry about the poor quality of the photo, its an old photo, and I got him just as he was about to sneeze!

 

PS, another myth, that it took a long time to get a knight into his armour. Two of us could get my friend into his in under 15 minutes, one helper took about 25 minutes

[RobL]

Somewhat brings an image, and I can't think where I saw it (might have been Red Dwarf), of a man, average to large size, on a very small horse. 😄

 

17 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Plus the chainmail - ever tried lifting that?

A knight on the ground became a footsoldier in the middle of a battle. You needed both hands to wield a broadsword.

 

 

You're thinking in 21st century terms.  We are emasculated compared to men of the medieval times.

 

Back then those who used the equipment either grew up using it, or trained almost daily in it, so the weight was nothing to them whilst they were fit and healthy.  Take the English Longbow for example, it needed something like 80-130lb to draw the string back, but as people started using bows as kids, by the time they became soldiers they were highly proficient and easily strong enough to pull the string back for combat shooting.

 

The same applies to armour and other weapons, although obviously not so much for full plate armour, because it was generally made for adults as far as I know.

Edited January 11, 2022 by RobL

[jackroadkill]

This is irrelevant to me; being common muck I'd never have to have worried about horses, knight and armour unless they were chopping me down from behind as I ran away, having discarded my billhook-onna-stick and legged it back towards the forest with all the other peasants.

[Black Knight]

You're Welsh!

You'd be slaughtering the k-niggits with your longbow arrows!

Although you lot did not use them to their full advantage. ie, knotty elm wood, easily broken, and only pulled to just in front of the nose

 

Another myth; that the English/Welsh/Scots peasants were poorly armed with bill-hooks and such

Records show that every man, and many women, turned out with a good bow, several good arrows and a short sword or long-knife as minimum

Between 5% and 15% of those called upon to war were women and they came well armed

Villages were obliged to send so many men to the call and the village had to make sure those men were properly and fully armed otherwise the village was fined to the value, and more, of equipping each man they sent poorly kitted out.

In the 14th Century upon coming to the summons each man had to bring a a good long bow, two spare strings and 24 good arrows and either a large mallet or short sword.

It was the LAW that every adult male [from the age of 12] had to be properly armed, trained and ready. It was because each of these countries was always being raided by others and you were expected to turn out to defend your area

The French always feared insurrection by the peasants so they restricted what weapons they could have. That's why they lost so many battles to the English and needed the help of Scots troops [Poitiers, 1356]

[jackroadkill]

7 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

You're Welsh!

You'd be slaughtering the k-niggits with your longbow arrows!

Although you lot did not use them to their full advantage. ie, knotty elm wood, easily broken, and only pulled to just in front of the nose

 

Another myth; that the English/Welsh/Scots peasants were poorly armed with bill-hooks and such

Records show that every man, and many women, turned out with a good bow, several good arrows and a short sword or long-knife as minimum

Between 5% and 15% of those called upon to war were women and they came well armed

Villages were obliged to send so many men to the call and the village had to make sure those men were properly and fully armed otherwise the village was fined to the value, and more, of equipping each man they sent poorly kitted out.

In the 14th Century upon coming to the summons each man had to bring a a good long bow, two spare strings and 24 good arrows and either a large mallet or short sword.

It was the LAW that every adult male [from the age of 12] had to be properly armed, trained and ready. It was because each of these countries was always being raided by others and you were expected to turn out to defend your area

The French always feared insurrection by the peasants so they restricted what weapons they could have. That's why they lost so many battles to the English and needed the help of Scots troops [Poitiers, 1356]

 

Yeah, I was just being silly, really.  Who'd tie a billhook to a stick?!  You'd be better off just to hold it in your hand, I reckon.  Funnily enough, us Welsh are pretty well tooled-up even today.  In my police area (Dyfed-Powys) there is the greatest density of legally-held firearms per head in the UK, and, pleasingly, the lowest recorded amount of crime committed with legally-held firearms.

[Black Knight]

Here be a wee funny true tale. At least I think its funny.

Some English knights were on a foray into part of Wales to kill or capture some Welsh rebels

The Welsh ambushed the knights whilst they were riding thorough a dense forest.

One knight got an arrow into his leg, so he turned his horse around so he could lean down to pull the arrow out. Then he got another arrow, into his good leg.

The knights retired [read - retreated]

Back at base castle it was found that both arrows had; gone through a leather trouser, chainmaille leg armour, padded legging, through the knights thigh, through the padded legging, through the chainmail, through the leather trouser, into and through the leather of the saddle, through the wood frame of the saddle and into the horse, later measured to be about 3 inches, 'a finger length'!

The two arrows had effectively pinned the knight to his horse!

Allegedly the knight spent a night and a day pinned to his horse until allegedly the farrier's son came up with an idea to free him, which worked and for which the farrier's son was well rewarded

[jackroadkill]

10 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Some English knights were on a foray into part of Wales to kill or capture some Welsh rebels

The Welsh ambushed the knights whilst they were riding thorough a dense forest.

 

There's a delicious irony to this.

 

I have a firm belief that the heir to the English throne is the Prince of Wales based on the idea that if you could keep us behind the dyke you'd do well enough as king.

[593jones]

10 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Here be a wee funny true tale. At least I think its funny.

Some English knights were on a foray into part of Wales to kill or capture some Welsh rebels

The Welsh ambushed the knights whilst they were riding thorough a dense forest.

One knight got an arrow into his leg, so he turned his horse around so he could lean down to pull the arrow out. Then he got another arrow, into his good leg.

The knights retired [read - retreated]

Back at base castle it was found that both arrows had; gone through a leather trouser, chainmaille leg armour, padded legging, through the knights thigh, through the padded legging, through the chainmail, through the leather trouser, into and through the leather of the saddle, through the wood frame of the saddle and into the horse, later measured to be about 3 inches, 'a finger length'!

The two arrows had effectively pinned the knight to his horse!

Allegedly the knight spent a night and a day pinned to his horse until allegedly the farrier's son came up with an idea to free him, which worked and for which the farrier's son was well rewarded

 

I can remember that being mentioned on a Timewatch programme many, many years ago.  The programme was about the longbow and featured Robert Hardy, an authority on bows and archery.

 

On the subject of knights and armour I recently read 'Agincourt' by Juliet Barker, very good book.  In it she mentions that the French marshal, Boucicaut, could vault on to his horse and could climb the underside of a ladder in full armour.   Perhaps it's the Olivier version of Henry V that has people thinking knights had to be winched on to their horses.

[silverkite211]

I remember watching a television program in which they spoke to a man who constructed plate and chain armor to original specifications, th subject of weight was brought up and he demonstrated the flexibility (and subjective weight) of the armor by preforming a cartwheel in full armor, minus the helmet. 

[Vince1159]

I remember an episode of War Walks with Professer Richard Holmes someone doing that (not the cartweel) and explaining about the flexibility which they had...

 

(if anyone from the bbc reads this could you PLEASE release the series on dvd)....

Edited January 12, 2022 by Vince1159

[Black Knight]

Would you believe that there were books of instructions for knights and squires?

I have a modern repro copy of one of them. Its in storage right now but one instruction always amuses me.

It goes like this;

"Should you find yourself unhorsed during battle, turn over onto your front and push downwards with your hands and knees so that you are kneeling like your hound. But be careful that in doing this that you do not present your bottom [the writer used the ar.. word] towards the enemy lest you make a good target and get an arrow up your fundament. Having got to this kneeling position, push downwards with your arms and lean back ways until you are just on your knees, then raise yourself upwards. Do this very quickly as you surely will present your enemy with an opportunity to lop off your head as you kneel before him. Your squire should be on hand to help raise you to your feet, to helm you and arm you. If your squire is not by your side and he not be dead, then he should be"

[3DStewart]

I saw a re-enactor at Warwick Castle lie down in full plate armour (minus helmet) and get back up again to show that he was a lot more mobile than people gave credit for. He said that what made you collapse was the heat that builds up in the suit. He said on a hot summer's day he could only go for 15 mins before he was exhausted.

[cmatthewbacon]

20 hours ago, 3DStewart said:

I saw a re-enactor at Warwick Castle lie down in full plate armour (minus helmet) and get back up again to show that he was a lot more mobile than people gave credit for. He said that what made you collapse was the heat that builds up in the suit. He said on a hot summer's day he could only go for 15 mins before he was exhausted.

I imagine that knowing that if you didn't, you'd be lying there until some Baldrick-alike peasant came along and terminally knifed you through the eye or the groin might have encouraged more than a few knights to get up off their backs no matter HOW heavy the armour was...

best,

M.

[Bertie McBoatface]

 

 

There are loads of these. The things we don't immediately grasp is that the weight is distributed all over the body and doesn't affect balance and mobility and that the wearers were professional warriors and trained constantly, just like modern soldiers. They were fast, strong, athletic veterans of a thousand practice battles. I see no reason for them to fight on anything other than the biggest, fastest, meanest horses that could get. The horse was a weapon too!