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1/48 - Avro Anson Mk.I by Airfix - released


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4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

A fabric covered wing over internal structure will be smooth when the fabric is freshly doped. This time the fabric stetches under load so you will see sag between the ribs on a static aircraft, although this will actually dome or quilt on upper surfaces when the aircraft is flying.  This is how the postwar Anson C, Mk.19 series 2 and commercial Avro 19s were made.  However, the prewar and wartime Anson wings were entiurely wooden structures, as said above.  They had a smooth plywood skin covered in doped fabric for weather protection.  They would not suffer from sag nor quilting unless the underlying skin was sodden, and the aircraft unfit for flight.

 

The Airfix wing seems to be odd, implying an underwing square structure and a worn fabric covering.  Possibly this is what a postwar wing would look like, I don't know.  It might be interesting to check the wingspan, as the metal structure wings had a 1ft greater span. Until someone comes up with a photo of a wartime wing showing this effect, I will doubt it.  But if you like it, well it's your model.

 

Maybe not sag exactly, but definitely uneven. Not smooth.

 

https://ibb.co/tDzMJ50

 

https://ibb.co/fMddLzc

 

 

Edited by New Tool
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The first photo is of a C.19 with the fabric covered metal wing.  It should be fairly smooth when freshly doped, which is basically how it appears here.

The second photo seems pretty smooth, certainly without significant patterned sag - or rather quilting, as it is in flight. quilting. 

 

This is not my fight really.  I was pointing out the engineering realities behind the mutterings.  If the new kit has tooled excessive features then smooth the wing with Mr. Surfacer or your favourite filler, then sand it sown.

 

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1 hour ago, New Tool said:

 

Maybe not sag exactly, but definitely uneven. Not smooth.

 

https://ibb.co/tDzMJ50

 

https://ibb.co/fMddLzc

 

 

Both metal wings. Yes I know the second photo looks like a Mk I but its a restoration using a Mk I fuselage and a C19 metal wing, not only a different material but also a different planform. Yet another case of 'Laser scanners beware'. 

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https://en.topwar.ru/177197-boevye-samolety-takoj-nezametnyj-veteran.html

 

The wings in the sixth picture down look rather worn out, sorta like the Airfix ones. The Finnish one also shows signs of not too smooth surface. Looks like it shows up more on darker wings. That Finnish one is identified as Mk.I in Warpaint.

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6 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

I do hope this kit is not going to be burdened by erroneous judgements on its accuracy: as many have said, it looks beautiful and offers a lot for the money too. But it would be a real shame if it got a bad reputation due to the fact that the nay-sayers didn't know their Anson wings. Maybe we should not discuss that (now proven to be accurate) aspect of the kit now?

 

But it does further reinforce my strong dislike of pre-release critique. Or pre "I have one in my hands, know the subject and can provide an objective assessment" critique.

I see where you're coming from, I was hoping that we would get to the bottom of things and we have.

I'm much happier that I have one pre-ordered. Thank You all. 

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Our bird, taken today.

The aircraft has been hangared all its life, including after its retirement.

It looks very similar to what Airfix has done, I might note the plywood on the wing is as thin as a brides nighty.

 

2z5g3SC.jpg

 

IaTeuDs.jpg

 

H40zWuJ.jpg

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On 10/22/2022 at 1:08 PM, Graham Boak said:

Yes, but probably not  MK.Is.  This sounds very much like the Canadian-built Mk.Vs with a more bulbous fuselage and round windows.

 

Many thanks Graham. On reflection, I believe he said round windows. The windshield bit was false memory created by looking at the Airfix parts. 

 

Cheers

 

Tony

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On 10/22/2022 at 2:22 AM, tony.t said:

Going to get this. Just wondering if there ever existed a smooth-cowled, turretless canary yellow trainer with the more sloping windshield? My father mentioned those differences in passing in the 1960s when recollecting his Nav training in Canada two decades earlier, when we built the tiny Airfix kit — but my nearly sixty year-old memory of 1965 might not be completely reliable! 

 

Tony 

Hi

    not sure of windscreen or cowlings but a uk built anson here, appears turret less and yellow 

N9818 

 

http://espritdecorps.ca/perspectives-1/grisly-and-the-bear-the-search-for-a-drowned-plane-leads-to-some-uninvited-company

 

 

a good page on canadian ansons 

 

https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/post/canadian-warplanes-3-avro-anson

 

  cheers

    jerry

 

Edited by brewerjerry
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On 10/23/2022 at 3:45 PM, NAVY870 said:

Our bird, taken today.

The aircraft has been hangared all its life, including after its retirement.

It looks very similar to what Airfix has done, I might note the plywood on the wing is as thin as a brides nighty.

 

2z5g3SC.jpg

 

IaTeuDs.jpg

 

H40zWuJ.jpg

Thanks, Steve - just what the doctor ordered!

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On 22/10/2022 at 10:22, tony.t said:

Going to get this. Just wondering if there ever existed a smooth-cowled, turretless canary yellow trainer with the more sloping windshield?

 

I've been looking into this because I want to do a 'sloping' windshield Mk.1 in a less conventional colour scheme. Though not stated widely, the steeper-sloped windscreen was introduced on N4856, the first of a batch of 500 aircraft ordered to contract 766119/38. The earliest operational Canadian airframe was N9913, so the answer is 'no'.

 

However, Canada did gain a few early Mk.1s for ground instructional use, so these might be looking for photos of: A84/N5345; A98/K6299; A103/K6154; A115/K6244 and A116/K6156. 

 

Otherwise, your Canadian Anson will be the Mk.1 with steeper (late) windshield.

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On 22/10/2022 at 16:10, Sabrejet said:

I do hope this kit is not going to be burdened by erroneous judgements on its accuracy: as many have said, it looks beautiful and offers a lot for the money too. But it would be a real shame if it got a bad reputation due to the fact that the nay-sayers didn't know their Anson wings. Maybe we should not discuss that (now proven to be accurate) aspect of the kit now?

 

But it does further reinforce my strong dislike of pre-release critique. Or pre "I have one in my hands, know the subject and can provide an objective assessment" critique.

Your "proven" is not everyone's proven. I remain at a loss to understand how sheets of plywood fixed between ribs sag in any way until a substantial amount of time passes? These are sheets of wood, not fabric. They are not positioned sunken between the ribs (as I understand it, which could be wrong) so should not be portrayed as "pits". The plywood is the skin. So why would plywood sag in this way, with most of the dip occurinv whrre urs attached? How does it curve from where its attached like that? I'm struggling to understand how plywood sheets can end up looking like a square trampoline with somebody standing in the middle? And on the underneath of the wing they are somehow sagging upwards? Photos are inconclusive. What we know is how the wing was constructed and there seems to be a bit of a jump from that to what Airfix appears to have produced. If I'm missing something here, I'm more than happy to understand the process or what I'm misunderstanding about the construction but you are not offering that. The Airfix wing looks like the plywood is attached below the ribs. Was it?spacer.png

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9 minutes ago, Phoenix44 said:

Your "proven" is not everyone's proven. I remain at a loss to understand how sheets of plywood fixed between ribs sag in any way until a substantial amount of time passes? These are sheets of wood, not fabric. They are not positioned sunken between the ribs (as I understand it, which could be wrong) so should not be portrayed as "pits". The plywood is the skin. So why would plywood sag in this way, with most of the dip occurinv whrre urs attached? How does it curve from where its attached like that? I'm struggling to understand how plywood sheets can end up looking like a square trampoline with somebody standing in the middle? And on the underneath of the wing they are somehow sagging upwards? Photos are inconclusive. What we know is how the wing was constructed and there seems to be a bit of a jump from that to what Airfix appears to have produced. If I'm missing something here, I'm more than happy to understand the process or what I'm misunderstanding about the construction but you are not offering that. The Airfix wing looks like the plywood is attached below the ribs. Was it?spacer.png

I believe that I have read here that not all Anson wings (particularly UK built one’s) were plywood. Am I imagining that?

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@Trenton guy the later Ansons (XIX and later), have metal wings (and tail, I think?) these are also of a different design and have a longer span and greater taper than the early wings. The only airworthy Ansons, have the later metal wing (ie the Anson Mk I that is airworthy isn't a true Anson Mk I).

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There are posts earlier showing fabric-covered plywood-skinned wings with sag. I'm happy with what Airfix have done. Having been hands-on with aircraft for 42 years now, I also don't have a problem with the technical side of the plywood wing and why it sags. The skin is not made from an inch-thick bit of kitchen table.

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Compare the photos earlier in the thread from NAVY870 of the fabric covering on a real aircraft with those of the finished kit by Phoenix44 and ask yourself, why have Airfix given the kit open panel lines and uncovered cleats? Is it ignorance of how aircraft are actually constructed or are they just pandering to the fashion favoured by (some) modelers for highlighted panel lines all over a surface (even if they are not visible on a real aircraft).

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17 minutes ago, Aeronut22 said:

Compare the photos earlier in the thread from NAVY870 of the fabric covering on a real aircraft with those of the finished kit by Phoenix44 and ask yourself, why have Airfix given the kit open panel lines and uncovered cleats? Is it ignorance of how aircraft are actually constructed or are they just pandering to the fashion favoured by (some) modelers for highlighted panel lines all over a surface (even if they are not visible on a real aircraft).

 

Agree - there is quite a difference between the photos Steve has kindly posted, and the photos of the kit, as presented by Airfix themselves.

 

I’m getting two kits and think the wings will be getting a makeover.

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5 hours ago, Phoenix44 said:

Your "proven" is not everyone's proven. I remain at a loss to understand how sheets of plywood fixed between ribs sag in any way until a substantial amount of time passes? These are sheets of wood, not fabric. They are not positioned sunken between the ribs (as I understand it, which could be wrong) so should not be portrayed as "pits". The plywood is the skin. So why would plywood sag in this way, with most of the dip occurinv whrre urs attached? How does it curve from where its attached like that? I'm struggling to understand how plywood sheets can end up looking like a square trampoline with somebody standing in the middle? And on the underneath of the wing they are somehow sagging upwards? Photos are inconclusive. What we know is how the wing was constructed and there seems to be a bit of a jump from that to what Airfix appears to have produced. If I'm missing something here, I'm more than happy to understand the process or what I'm misunderstanding about the construction but you are not offering that. The Airfix wing looks like the plywood is attached below the ribs. Was it?spacer.png

 

Looks identical to the Duxford one.

 

52446730127_1375d00318.jpg2022-10-23_07-41-34 by Tony Osborne, on Flickr

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Looking for interesting colour schemes, I noted the AST Hamble/Navy aircraft, which have a pod mounted under the nose and seem to be in two different schemes. This one is in trainer silver with yellow band:

 

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1800944

 

Others seem to be overall (yellow?). Does anyone have detail of the pod installation or colour scheme details? I'd still like to go for a 'slanty' windshield version but these later aircraft do have a better range of colour schemes.

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