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Grumman Avenger FAA identification help


Grey Beema

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Secret Santa was very good to me this year.

 

He managed to bundle up the Tamiya 1/48 Fairy Swordfish MkII, the Special Hobby 1/48 Fairey Albacore and the Hobby Boss FAA Grumman Avenger all in one parcel and get it down the chimney at Chez Grey Beema.

 

As is my way I have been looking at aircraft to represent by each model.  I have identified several Swordfish MkIIs that sunk U-Boats that I could build and have also identified an Operation Torch Albacore from a HMS Formidable to build.

 

But now I’m on the hunt for a suitable Grumman Avenger.  

 

I am looking at 875 NAS Avengers aboard HMS Indomitable in 1945.  This is where the Britmodeller bee hive mind cuts in.

 

Perusing ‘Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939-1945’ I saw this aircraft which would fit right into my collection:-

 

JZ552:  857 NAS HMS Indomitable.  Operation Meridian II raid on Palembang.  TAG shot down Ki44 29.01.45 SL AH Hunt & LA M Rees.

 

I know the serial but what is the side number?  So I am calling on the usual suspects  @iang @ClaudioN @Lee Howard @Graham Boak @Seahawk @85sqn @Dunny @Giorgio Nand anyone else who can help.

 

Looking at other 857 aircraft I find:-

JZ563 W1H:W357

JZ565 W7N:W1N

JZ566 W7O

JZ576 W1C:W372

JZ592 W1S:W386

JZ594 W1A

JZ614 :W372

JZ615 W1A:W370

 

So I would conclude that the side number on 29.01.45 was either W7? or W1?  I am wondering if anyone could help identify 7 or 1 and the individual aircraft letter?  If you have also com3 across a picture - that would be handy too..

 

Thanks in advance..

 

 

 

Edited by Grey Beema
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In the earlier system the number identifies the squadron: thus 1,2, and 2 identify TBR aircraft - in this case Avengers.  6 and higher identify fighters.  In the later system (and likely the earlier one too, the first number identifies the number of crewmen.  So W7O would not be an Avenger.  However, in its earliest land-based stage it did indeed carry codes 7x, but without the W.  JZ532 was 7G, carried aft of the roundel.  JZ497 was either 7E or 7F.  So there quite likely was a 7O

 

I would suggest from this that 857 Sq was initially the senior TBR squadron on the carrier and would carry letter codes W1x where X is the individual aircraft's letter.  These were later replaced by the BPF code numbers, ranging from 370 to 386, suggesting JX563 was not an 857 Sq aircraft, although it is recorded as such in FAA Aircraft of WW2.  857 appears to have been the only Avenger squadron on the carrier at this time.

 

A photo of JX594 W.1A in the 2nd edition of FAA Squadrons shows these codes were carried at the time of the refinery attacks, the aircraft having a small blue/white roundel on the fuselage with the W aft and the 1A forward - the W appears darker than the white other codes.  The wing roundel on the accompanying aircraft has a small white centre and a very large blue surround, encroaching ahead of the slot.

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Apologies if well known as not quite the exact aircraft but there is a picture of JZ594 W.1A "about to attack a Japanese oil refinery on 20 Dec 1944" on p346 of Scale Aircraft Modelling May 1984. It's credited to the FAA Museum so may well have appeared elsewhere. The interesting thing for me was the use of small (SEAC ?) roundels.

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53 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

In the earlier system the number identifies the squadron: thus 1,2, and 2 identify TBR aircraft - in this case Avengers.  6 and higher identify fighters.  In the later system (and likely the earlier one too, the first number identifies the number of crewmen.  So W7O would not be an Avenger.  However, in its earliest land-based stage it did indeed carry codes 7x, but without the W.  JZ532 was 7G, carried aft of the roundel.  JZ497 was either 7E or 7F.  So there quite likely was a 7O

 

I would suggest from this that 857 Sq was initially the senior TBR squadron on the carrier and would carry letter codes W1x where X is the individual aircraft's letter.  These were later replaced by the BPF code numbers, ranging from 370 to 386, suggesting JX563 was not an 857 Sq aircraft, although it is recorded as such in FAA Aircraft of WW2.  857 appears to have been the only Avenger squadron on the carrier at this time.

 

A photo of JX594 W.1A in the 2nd edition of FAA Squadrons shows these codes were carried at the time of the refinery attacks, the aircraft having a small blue/white roundel on the fuselage with the W aft and the 1A forward - the W appears darker than the white other codes.  The wing roundel on the accompanying aircraft has a small white centre and a very large blue surround, encroaching ahead of the slot.

Thanks Graham,

 

By the time of Meridian I & II 857 was the only Avenger Squadron on Indomitable which would account for the Squadron designation of 1.

 

Im starting to rethink this aircraft as although the incident is listed in ‘Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939-1945’ it is not referenced in ‘The British Pacific Fleet’ by David Hobbs, or the Armoured Carrier web site (which seems to quote Hobbs).

 

Maybe i’ll Look up LtGJ Connolly’s 845 NAS Avenger who shot down a Tojo with his forward firing guns..

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Indomitable operated 815 and 817 squadrons of the 12th Naval TBR Wing with 12 Barracudas each between July and Oct 1944. When the decision was made to replace the Barracudas with Avengers in Eastern Fleet, Fleet Carriers, a single squadron, 857 squadron, was allocated with 21 aircraft.

 

857 had operated from formation with the squadron code 7 + an aircraft letter. On joining Indomitable in Nov 1944 this became W7 + an aircraft letter (W identifying Indomitable as the parent carrier). That then became W1 + aircraft letter in Jan 1945. On arrival in Australia it reduced its aircraft complement to 15 and adopted numerical codes in the 370-386 range with the carrier identifier W on the fin before taking part in Operation Iceberg off Okinawa. (From Squadrons and Units of the FAA).

 

In the BPF the number allocation was as follows:-

111-169 single seat fighters divided between the two fighter squadrons on each carrier

270-298 two seaters

370-398 three seaters.

 

It is therefore entirely possible to have two aircraft on different carriers with the same number (but different tail letters). The oddity with JZ563 is that the number is outwith the normal range carried by the BPF squadrons. That suggests to me that it is a typo in the book and it should be 375/W.

 

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5 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

Thanks Graham,

 

By the time of Meridian I & II 857 was the only Avenger Squadron on Indomitable which would account for the Squadron designation of 1.

 

Im starting to rethink this aircraft as although the incident is listed in ‘Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939-1945’ it is not referenced in ‘The British Pacific Fleet’ by David Hobbs, or the Armoured Carrier web site (which seems to quote Hobbs).

 

Maybe i’ll Look up LtGJ Connolly’s 845 NAS Avenger who shot down a Tojo with his forward firing guns..

 

Or you could go for JZ186: Q4P of 854 Squadron that engaged two Ki-44, on 29.1.45 one of which was observed to go down ( I'm looking at the Combat Report now, while searching for any report by JZ552). I might even have a photograph of Q4P (I'll need to check).

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9 minutes ago, iang said:

 

Or you could go for JZ186: Q4P of 854 Squadron that engaged two Ki-44, on 29.1.45 one of which was observed to go down ( I'm looking at the Combat Report now, while searching for any report by JZ552). I might even have a photograph of Q4P (I'll need to check).

Thank you Ian.  I would be interested in JZ186/Q4P if I can’t find anything further on JZ552.  

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I thought I had copies of all the Combat Reports for Palembang, but I don't have any for 857 squadron. I also have all of the individual carriers' reports on the operations.  Indomitable's Report does not mention any air-to-air combat by a 857 Squadron Avenger, but does list al the aircraft that ditched or were damaged.  There is also no mention by the Striking Force Commander in his Report. Obviously, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but I wonder if this is an error? 

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6 minutes ago, iang said:

I thought I had copies of all the Combat Reports for Palembang, but I don't have any for 857 squadron. I also have all of the individual carrier's reports on the operations.  Indomitable's Report does not mention any air-to-air combat by a 857 Squadron Avenger. There is also no mention by the Striking Force Commander in his Report. Obviously, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but I wonder if this is an error? 

Thanks again Ian,  is there a combat report from LtGJ Connolly’s 854 NAS?  Aircraft is listed as being unidentified in Sturtivant - “Avenger shot down a Tojo with his forward firing guns”...

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3 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

Thanks again Ian,  is there a combat report from LtGJ Connolly’s 854 NAS?  Aircraft is listed as being unidentified in Sturtivant - “Avenger shot down a Tojo with his forward firing guns”...

Yes, that's the one. I'm surprised it is listed as unidentified. The Combat Report gives both code and serial, which is not always the case.

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18 minutes ago, iang said:

Yes, that's the one. I'm surprised it is listed as unidentified. The Combat Report gives both code and serial, which is not always the case.

 

So to confirm JZ186/Q4P is the 854 NAS Aircraft flown by Lt GJ Connolly?  I will add a note to my book.

 

I’ll now go and see if I can find a picture of both the aircraft and pilot..

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1 hour ago, Grey Beema said:

 

Haven’t been able to add to the info provided by my learned colleagues in this fast developing story.

 

There’s a nice photo of EIF-marked Avenger Q4U of 854 going over the side of Illustrious on p.173 of R G Fletcher’s Frontline Avenger Squadrons of the FAA (and I dare say elsewhere as well).  No date given and serial not legible.  Interestingly the fuselage roundel appears to have a 32” outer (blue) diameter: Q4P may have been similarly marked.  Only other useful info I can see is that the individual letter is repeated on the cowling in what I take to be a 12” black letter.  (Cowling has the camo demarcation halfway down as usual.)

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Interesting.  At the time of this photograph fuselage roundels seem regulation size and the nose individual letters look more like 8".  But then look at the underwing roundels on Q4B and Q4T, which seem of even bigger outer diameter than an overpainted "European" 32" Type C roundel.  (Q4U, the aircraft I alluded to, had regulation small roundels under the wing.)

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16 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

Interesting.  At the time of this photograph fuselage roundels seem regulation size and the nose individual letters look more like 8".  But then look at the underwing roundels on Q4B and Q4T, which seem of even bigger outer diameter than an overpainted "European" 32" Type C roundel.  (Q4U, the aircraft I alluded to, had regulation small roundels under the wing.)

I’m trying to work out, 4B, 4Q & 4P does that look like the overwing roundels have been painted over and a smaller Roundel painted on or is it my imagination?

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56 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

I’m trying to work out, 4B, 4Q & 4P does that look like the overwing roundels have been painted over and a smaller Roundel painted on or is it my imagination?

I think that you are seeing the contrast between the very faded original outer blue of the roundel and the fresher blue and white where the red centre of the European roundel has been overpainted.  But I'd freely concede that that explanation isn't always a wholly satisfactory explanation of what BW photos appear to show.

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1 hour ago, Seahawk said:

I think that you are seeing the contrast between the very faded original outer blue of the roundel and the fresher blue and white where the red centre of the European roundel has been overpainted.  

I agree.  The aircraft on deck were probably not all embarked together, which may account for variations in the style of adjustments to national markings. While searching of evidence relating to 857 Squadron Avengers today, I learnt that Indomitable embarked 25 Avengers for Operation Meridian, only 16 of which were for her air group.  The other 9 were spares for the other 3 carriers. 

 

 

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Not sure if it helps,..... but I did the 1/32nd Trumpy Avenger as JZ186, Q4P, as part of one of my old Model Aircraft Monthly articles.....

 

132-Avenger-2.jpg

DSCF9588.jpg

1-32nd-EIF-Avenger-2.jpg

Av8.jpg

 

Then there is the standard P1X,..... did this donkeys years ago in 1/48th,.... 

DSCF9265.jpg

 

Good luck,..... and remember that you`ll need to find some waist bubbles,....... maybe ask here on BM if anybody has made the Acc Min/Revell etc kit as a US Navy one and has some left over bubbles? I`m sure you`ll do a brilliant job,

Cheers

          Tony

 

 

 

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Great work there Tony.

 

Yes I found pictures of your model whilst doing a web search yesterday.  Great model, I love it.  I only hope that mine comes out nearly as good as yours..

 

I do have a problem though.  I am going to have to extend my display case.  The Swordfish, Albacore and Avenger are not small aeroplanes, added to which I also have a Walrus in WIP, three Fulmars (Brabner, Bruen & Sewell), three Hellcats (Atkinson, Foster, Wilson) and a Corsair (Sheppard) in the stash and need to procure yet more including a Barracuda...  Ikea, get one of those Billy bookcases dusted off, I’m on my way...

 

 

Edited by Mike
Removed massive photo quote from the post above.
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On 03/01/2022 at 13:36, iang said:

Yes, that's the one. I'm surprised it is listed as unidentified. The Combat Report gives both code and serial, which is not always the case.

It isn't an unidentified in the master copy on my computer - one of many gaps that have been filled already. And while I know the original book is the only thing out there at the moment, I'm trying my best to get the second edition finished as soon as I can but am really reliant upon the help of others who might have access to some of the documents from TNA which were never checked thoroughly 30 years ago (for various reasons). @Bengt has been very generous in sending me photos of a number of Record Books that I simply haven't been able to get to Kew to copy myself so that I can methodically scrutinise them, and I've done them all bar (I think) three, now. But there are other documents such as combat reports that I would still like to compare with what we have to be as sure as I can that the final product will be as accurate as possible and therefore a good source for the people on this forum (amongst others). Connolly's entry in JZ186 on 29 Jan 45 doesn't, for instance, have the rest of his crew. All offers of help with documentation gratefully accepted!

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On 03/01/2022 at 10:19, Grey Beema said:

JZ552:  857 NAS HMS Indomitable.  Operation Meridian II raid on Palembang.  TAG shot down Ki44 29.01.45 SL AH Hunt & LA M Rees.

 

I know the serial but what is the side number?  So I am calling on the usual suspects  @iang @ClaudioN @Lee Howard @Graham Boak @Seahawk @85sqn @Dunny @Giorgio Nand anyone else who can help.

 

Afraid not. Not come to light yet.

 

 

 

 

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Lee,

all of the Combat Reports I have were made as photocopies in the 1990s/early 2000s,  not digital copies, so are hard to share en masse without a lot of effort, given that they are A3 format. Connolly's Report does not list his crew. However, Illustrious' report on Meridian dated 2/2/45, discusses Connolly's air-to-air combats and lists his Observer for the mission as  Lt. R.E. Jess DSC RCNVR.

 

 

IG

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