Panzer IV with Schurzen question

[f matthews]

I am aware that the turret-facing interior side of the extra turret and hull armor (Schurzen) of Panzer IVs (mid-late Ausf.Gs until the end) is the base yellow colour, but what about the turret sides themselves?  In 30 or more years, I can’t recall any really definitely clear wartime shots showing if the turrets were the base yellow or if they had the disruptive green and/or brown camo sprayed or brushed on. Were they partially painted as in 1/2 way down the sides? This would seem like a waste of resources (paint and time).

I’ve seen modelers and restorers paint these areas, but I’m doubting the authenticity of this.

Does anyone have either definitive info as to painting directives or good, clear photos showing the turrets behind the schurzen?

I have seen photos of vehicle hull sides where the hull schurzen sheets have fallen off or been removed and there is camo on the hulls visible in several photos, but not as clear as to how this was on the turrets.  Maybe it was on some and not others?

The vehicle-facing side of the side skirts are pretty clearly Dark Yellow here:

This shot appears to show no disruptive camo on the turret sides?

This shows camo on the hull behind the side armour:

This shot also appears to lack disruptive camo on the turret:

This just looks completely wrong:

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by f matthews

[Kingsman]

PzIVs would have been camouflage painted by crews or unit workshops in the field.  They were not factory camouflaged.  Each one was therefore individually different.  So it is hard to be absolute about this. 

 

But it would seem illogical to paint the turret sides behind the schurzen, or perhaps even the hull sides behind too.  The schurzen were not intended to be temporary, although as we know the hull side plates in particular tended to get damaged and lost.  Turret skirts were less susceptible to environmental damage.

[M3talpig]

Got to agree with Mr Abteilung on this...i see no good reason to spray or hand paint behind the turret schurzen sits fairly close to the turret ...at most if sprayed i would expect some over spray but can you imagine trying to fit a spray gun in that gap...on the hull sides (such as they are ) cant imagine they would be too bothered about that either since ....well there hardly sides at all and for the most part there covered in tools....i suppose if the crew or field workshop were feeling particularly thorough they could simply lift the hull schurzen off to spray behind ....but what would be the point.

[dov]

Well, I was confronted with this matter at my Panzer IV build. You can see it in RFI. The Miniart instruction did not say much.

Profuction and field pictures shows even at the winter camo to ways. As shade in dark or white with camo can be seen.

Logicaly  If you can loose one sheet easily, so you are naked in the snow, if the hull has no camo.

To endanger the life? To safe time and paint?

No option if I would have been a commander.

So, full camo for my understanding!

Got it?

Did you know, that the G version and H version Schürze  were verticaly. They caused a big dust problem. Highly vissible dust column!  Report from the Panzer desk in original documents. Therefore many commanders ordered to dismount them. 

On the J version this problem is solved.

[GuyF]

My thought is always go to what you would do in reality. These sets were mostly applied in the field as kits to upgrade an existing Panze, probably during refit/servicing. They would have come from the manufacturers in Sand Gelb. They would then be attached to an existing already painted vehicle. I think, therefore that while the outsides would have been camouflaged to match the vehicle, no one would have wasted time camouflaging the inside of the schurzen. Also remember, that often schurzen would have been taken from knocked out tanks to make good damage on serviceable ones. So you can easily get different non matching patterns. Good books for ideas are the Panzer Colours and D-Day to Berlin, all by Arms and Armour Press. IIRC D-Day to Berlin is by Terrence Wise and Panzer Colours are by Bruce Culver.

[Kelscale]

There are many pics of Ausf H & J Pz.IV's with camo painted on turret and Aufbau sides. Almost all of them with the rails and many with the Schurzen still attached. There are few pics in the Panzer-Tracts Ausf H & J book showing factory applied late war Ausf J's with them painted but field applied camo vehicles may well have not bothered.