Tailspin Turtle Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 7 minutes ago, Marvel Onkey said: Forgive the stupid question- was there anything about the Buccaneer that made it particularly suited to flying at very low level? My impression is it was more related to the mission, first for anti-ship strike and later runway interdiction for example. In both cases survivability was enhanced by coming in as low and as fast (the Buccaneer was area ruled for highest transonic speed given the thrust) as possible, which meant that in the absence of airborne radar with look-down capability, radar detection range and surface-to-air missile or radar-directed gun firing solution time was minimized. Being low, to a lesser extent, also made interception and weapons employment by a fighter more difficult. It’s also a rush for the pilot, less so for the guy in back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Swindell Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 59 minutes ago, Marvel Onkey said: Forgive the stupid question- was there anything about the Buccaneer that made it particularly suited to flying at very low level? A high wing loading helped, giving a much smoother ride in low level turbulence. A smooth ride helped crew efficiency and reduced airframe fatigue. The penalty was a high landing speed and the fully blown wings/flaps needed to help mitigate this. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 It was also built like a brick outhouse - virtually carved from the solid. This made it very stiff and able to take the stresses of an ultra low level mission. A max weight Bucc weighed more than a fully tooled F-4. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Onkey Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Thanks for the answers guys; amazing aircraft and incredible flying, it's hard to credit that more of them didn't hit the ground or the drink- one sneeze from the pilot and it's goodnight Irene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Brother-in-law was based at Laarbruch in the very early '80s. he still has a photo of a low level Bucc, taken head on very low. The photographer was standing in a 4 foot deep trench and had to duck as the a/c went over. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Bucc pilots would select 'gear up' on the runway. As soon as the a/c lifted and the pressure came off the WOW switches, retraction was instant and the a/c continued at that height. You can see it on the footage from Gib. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Riot Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 23 hours ago, iainpeden said: Brother-in-law was based at Laarbruch in the very early '80s. he still has a photo of a low level Bucc, taken head on very low. The photographer was standing in a 4 foot deep trench and had to duck as the a/c went over. Would love to see that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spruecutter96 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 If folks have read the book "Jaguar Boys", there is a photo in there that must count as some of the lowest-level flying ever. I think the incident occurred in Oman. It depicts the roof of a small car, which had been hit by the belly fuel-tank of a Jaguar. The really remarkable thing is, someone was driving the car at the time. Apparently, they were uninjured! Cheers. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 On 1/18/2022 at 7:23 PM, Tailspin Turtle said: Being low, to a lesser extent, also made interception and weapons employment by a fighter more difficult. Still is difficult Even modern AAMs are likely to hit the ground instead (they don't launch/fly in a perfectly straight laserbeam-like trajectory), not to mention the difficulties of getting off a deflection shot with guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tapsell Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 And sometimes it goes wrong... In October 1973, an F4E from Bitburg collided with a US Army M113 APC during a low level pass whilst taking part in the annual Reforger exercise. The crew of both the F4 and the '113 were killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 5 hours ago, John Tapsell said: And sometimes it goes wrong... In October 1973, an F4E from Bitburg collided with a US Army M113 APC during a low level pass whilst taking part in the annual Reforger exercise. The crew of both the F4 and the '113 were killed. collided with or crashed into? was this intended low flying? flat dessert in Oman is not the same as hilly Europe.... any more info? photos of the unfortunate car, and some vids: https://www.pprune.org/2684735-post120.html 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tapsell Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) Reforger 1973 (the annual US Army exercises in Germany) - the 1973 exercise was named 'Certain Charge' Date: 13th October. Location: Alesheim, close Weissenberg-in-Bayern An F4E Phantom belonging to 525 Tactcal Fighter Sqn, 36th Tactical Fighter Wing hit an M113 from 1st Infantry Division (actually an M125 or M106 mortar carrier, looking at the photos) whilst flying at low level (allegedly a strafing run). An M113 weighs around 13 tonnes and is slightly over 7 feet tall. It was rolled over (possibly multiple times) before coming to rest on it's roof. The F4 crew (pilot was Captain George Williams - haven't been able to track down the backseater's name) were killed when the aircraft hit the ground, as were the two crew members in the vehicle. A German farmer working nearby was also severely injured. Aircraft serial was 67-0225 I've been investigating the accident for several years and recently spoke with a witness (ex US Army) who was less than 100 yards from the incident. Edited February 22, 2022 by John Tapsell 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 22 hours ago, John Tapsell said: Reforger 1973 (the annual US Army exercises in Germany) - the 1973 exercise was named 'Certain Charge' Date: 13th October. oh bugger: https://www.facebook.com/Military.Database/posts/2159841224241624/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Coombs Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 Wasn't there a theory that the Buccaneer went into ground effect in a certain speed/altitude combination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Des Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Steve Coombs said: Wasn't there a theory that the Buccaneer went into ground effect in a certain speed/altitude combination? I have read that as well with the fully 'blown' wing with boundary layer control air drawn from the engines possibly being a factor and as perhaps most commonly seen by the public for those very spectacular wheels-up runway hugging take-offs. Suggestion seemed to be that if left to its own without control input or solid object getting in the way that the aircraft would hold that position. The inherent strength of the airframe also seems to be credited for the aircraft's stability in low-level high-speed flight. Possibly a simplistic view that will probably soon be corrected. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamS Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 On 1/19/2022 at 9:15 AM, bentwaters81tfw said: Bucc pilots would select 'gear up' on the runway. As soon as the a/c lifted and the pressure came off the WOW switches, retraction was instant and the a/c continued at that height. You can see it on the footage from Gib. I’ve been told that the only reason Buccaneers get airborne is due to the curvature of the Earth. Graham 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Excellent,.... I was aboard a ship called the MV Hamburg in a convoy in the Atlantic during Ex Purple Warrior in 1987 when we were attacked by Buccaneer`s and it was awesome,..... they were weaving between the ships! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phone Phixer Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 When I was on 237 OCU there was a staff pilot that reckoned he could take his hand off the stick and a Buccaneer would fly at 20ft courtesy of the boundary layer effect. Open the bomb bay and it would go down to 15ft. We didn't ask him to prove it!! The Jaguars in Oman had a reputation for going low. Picture from clark_aviation. This was the above mentioned car that was hit. Picture from Facebook SEPECAT jaguar appreciation group. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Pulfrew Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 11 hours ago, Steve Coombs said: Wasn't there a theory that the Buccaneer went into ground effect in a certain speed/altitude combination? I think that accolade was reserved for the Jaguar 😇 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Des Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 14 hours ago, tonyot said: Excellent,.... I was aboard a ship called the MV Hamburg in a convoy in the Atlantic during Ex Purple Warrior in 1987 when we were attacked by Buccaneer`s and it was awesome,..... they were weaving between the ships! Towards the end of their service there was a newspaper story about a CalMac Ferry Captain somewhere among the Western Isles complaining about being bracketed by a pair flying at bridge height. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailspin Turtle Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) My favorite, undoubtedly apocryphal, story concerned an elderly British lady who called into the local air base to complain about a low flying airplane. The officer asked if she was able to see any identifying marks on it to which she responded, “the only one I saw was ‘trestle here’”. Edited February 25, 2022 by Tailspin Turtle 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopper61 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 What a fabulous clip. It reminded me of a day I spent with an old mate at an airshow back in the 80s at RAF Manston. He was an RAF senior mech at the time who worked on Buccaneers. Before the display he said to me he was really looking forward to the Buccs 'do their thing', expanding that he hoped they did their 'signature takeoff'. When I asked him what he mean't he just replied "wait and see". Well, they did and yes it was the wheels retract whilst on seemingly still charging up the runway with no nose up. I was amazed. He laughed at my expression of amazement and explained that they can do that due to ground effect being so strong. He went on to say they could even put the stick forward and they would bounce, not hit the deck. Whether that last bit was true but it is a great story. Happy days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B (Sc) Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) On 2/23/2022 at 8:36 PM, Steve Coombs said: Wasn't there a theory that the Buccaneer went into ground effect in a certain speed/altitude combination? Yes. Not a theory, according to ex-Buccaneer aircrew. At very low level over reasonably calm water, the Buccaneer was quite stable, resisting any mild attempts to push it lower. It was possible to trim it to fly hands off at absurdly low height as a result, and maritime crews had great confidence in it. And 'chopper61' - that is what I was told too. Even quite a firm forward pressure wouldn't affect it. ( I think some of these ultra low level fliers got a touch blase about ground hugging! ) John B Edited February 25, 2022 by John B (Sc) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) I recall one air show display way back in the day and it would have been either Prestwick or Leuchars, I forget which. While it wasn’t hugging the deck I vividly remember a fast pass when the Buccaneer came from the right dropping altitude as it came down to the start of the crowd line. He was tramping so much that he seemed not to be making any noise until he was almost past us when it got noisy. Gave a few folks a fright and I did wonder if he was in a spot of bother at the debrief. Spectacular though. Edited February 26, 2022 by JohnT Spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairystick Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 14 hours ago, chopper61 said: He laughed at my expression of amazement and explained that they can do that due to ground effect being so strong. He went on to say they could even put the stick forward and they would bounce, not hit the deck. Whether that last bit was true but it is a great story. Chuck Yeager writes about that in his book and tested/confirmed the theory of ground effect over the flat areas of the desert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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