Does this brown have a ral number?

[Doggy]

Hi all and happy New year when it comes.

 

Apologies for another camo question but, this revell kit has me scratching my head.

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/revell-03249-tiger-ii-ausfb--977622

 

One of the patterns appears to be dunklegelb base colour but the second colour is confusing. Revell have it at 50 50 earth Matt 87 and beige Matt 89. That's going to make a brown ish colour I've never heard of before.

 

Is there a ral number for it? 

 

And what determines an ambush pattern, does it need to have the little speckles in it or can it just be the standard 3 colours?

[Rumblestripe]

Wasn't that reddish brown colour simply the red oxide primer on late war KTs? I believe some Panthers also left the factory in primer with a camouflage pattern applied over the top?

 

Vallejo German Red Brown Primer

 

As a primer I doubt that it would be very consistent from day to day even as it left the factory so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

I think Tamiya XF-52 would be a good match too 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Rumblestripe

[Doggy]

1 minute ago, Rumblestripe said:

Wasn't that reddish brown colour simply the red oxide primer on late war KTs? I believe some Panthers also left the factory in primer with a camouflage pattern applied over the top?

 

Vallejo German Red Brown Primer

 

As a primer I doubt that it would be very consistent from day to day even as it left the factory so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Oh it's maybe primer? I never thought of that.

 

Cheers.

[dogsbody]

Those red-browns and green camo pattern colours were also supplied as cans of paste that could be supplied to the tank crews, to be mixed with either gasoline or water. The crew could then slap it on their tank as they saw fit or as directed by their regimental commander. Sometimes it was sprayed on, if the equipment was available or brushed on with whatever was handy. The tanks left the factory in just the base colour.

 

 

Chris

[Doggy]

5 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

Those red-browns and green camo pattern colours were also supplied and cans of paste that could be supplied to the tank crews, to be mixed with either gasoline or water. The crew could then slap it on their tank as they saw fit or as directed by their regimental commander. Sometimes it was sprayed on, if the equipment was available or brushed on with whatever was handy. The tanks left the factory in just the base colour.

 

 

Chris

Thanks Chris. 

 

Once you realise that you can effectively use your own imagination and interpretation I suppose.

 

I was all over YouTube and the net yesterday trying to pick a camo pattern, still haven't decided yet.

 

Cheers.

[Whitewolf]

The idea tanks left the factory using red primer as  camouflage colour has been proven to be incorrect. MIGAmmo do a paint set for the KT with the correct colours including the Red Brown, I highly recommend it.

[Rumblestripe]

12 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

The idea tanks left the factory using red primer as  camouflage colour has been proven to be incorrect. MIGAmmo do a paint set for the KT with the correct colours including the Red Brown, I highly recommend it.

I'd be interested to see the references for that. I know Bovington has (or had) both Panther and Jagdpanther painted in red oxide with a disruptive pattern applied over the top.

 

In truth the concept of a "correct colour" on any tank but particularly on one produced during war conditions is liable to be elusive at best.

[Whitewolf]

2 hours ago, Rumblestripe said:

I'd be interested to see the references for that. I know Bovington has (or had) both Panther and Jagdpanther painted in red oxide with a disruptive pattern applied over the top.

 

In truth the concept of a "correct colour" on any tank but particularly on one produced during war conditions is liable to be elusive at best.

It was widely believed due to an error by a military historian that tanks were outshopped with red oxide as part of the camo - i believe it has been covered in a couple of articles on here......Bovington sometimes have a few strange schemes, but I believe the Panther has since been repainted?

[Kingsman]

Yes the red primer theory has been debunked.  It was current from perhaps 15 or 20 years ago until perhaps 5 years ago.  Bovington's "streaky bacon" Panther was believed to be correct when it was painted about 13 or 14 years ago.  Their Jagdpanther repaint in a similar scheme was hugely controversial - 15 pages or more on Missing Lynx - as it postdated the new information.  But that was a setup deal with WoT over a new Jagdpanther skin in the game, and is temporary paint, pending a "proper" repaint.

 

IIRC Thomas Jentz first put forward the idea.  But he certainly put forward the revised ideas based on re-interpretation of the source documents.  The new instructions authorised factories to cease painting vehicles in overall Dunkelgelb to save paint and to begin camouflage painting.  Only dunkelgelb areas were to be painted that colour.  Areas of red-brown and green were to be applied directly to the primer.  This is where the misinterpretation took place.  However, how well these were followed is unclear.  For example, MNH is known to have produced Panthers in straight-edged striped schemes.  Yet photos emerged in the discussion of Bovington's Jagdpanther of the MNH factory at the end of the war with Panthers and JPs in production in overall dunkelgelb.  Which implies that - at least in this one case - overall dunkelgelb was seen as preferable to primer and dunkelgelb.  Presumably no green or red-brown paint was available by that time.

 

And never trust kit painting instructions without some sort of corroboration.  German colours are very well known: no excuse for new ones.......

[Whitewolf]

2 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Yes the red primer theory has been debunked.  It was current from perhaps 15 or 20 years ago until perhaps 5 years ago.  Bovington's "streaky bacon" Panther was believed to be correct when it was painted about 13 or 14 years ago.  Their Jagdpanther repaint in a similar scheme was hugely controversial - 15 pages or more on Missing Lynx - as it postdated the new information.  But that was a setup deal with WoT over a new Jagdpanther skin in the game, and is temporary paint, pending a "proper" repaint.

 

IIRC Thomas Jentz first put forward the idea.  But he certainly put forward the revised ideas based on re-interpretation of the source documents.  The new instructions authorised factories to cease painting vehicles in overall Dunkelgelb to save paint and to begin camouflage painting.  Only dunkelgelb areas were to be painted that colour.  Areas of red-brown and green were to be applied directly to the primer.  This is where the misinterpretation took place.  However, how well these were followed is unclear.  For example, MNH is known to have produced Panthers in straight-edged striped schemes.  Yet photos emerged in the discussion of Bovington's Jagdpanther of the MNH factory at the end of the war with Panthers and JPs in production in overall dunkelgelb.  Which implies that - at least in this one case - overall dunkelgelb was seen as preferable to primer and dunkelgelb.  Presumably no green or red-brown paint was available by that time.

 

And never trust kit painting instructions without some sort of corroboration.  German colours are very well known: no excuse for new ones.......

Spot on!

[Doggy]

What determines an ambush pattern? Is it the little speckles over the three colours?

 

Thanks.