Centurion wheels?

[Bozothenutter]

Question are the Amusing Centurion wheel rims moulded so I can remove material with a lathe to create the reinforcig bands (ie too thick), or does material need adding?

From the pictures of real wheels I hope/suspect the former, but I'm no expert.

[Kingsman]

It looks to my eye that they have used the thickness of the reinforcing rim at the rim edge, which would perhaps be logical as that's what the edge looked like.  But we're talking fractions of a mm in 1/35. The inner ring was actually always deeper that the outer one, but again tiny fractions of a mm in scale.  I don't know for certain whether the Mk5 had the first or second pattern, but the Mk5 was essentially still a Mk3 which still used what were in effect Comet wheels designed for a much lighter tank.  I believe the second pattern came in on the Mk7.  But in service they would have been replaced with whatever was available and I can only assume that spare wheel production switched to each later pattern in turn.

 

Not wishing to question your lathe-fu, but if it were me I'd be beating a path to the Sovereign 2000 replacements, available in new or damaged form.  Don't know how available that brand is on your side of the Channel.  The MR Modellbau or Brach sets might be more economical on that side of The Great Wall (Ditch?) Of Customs Duties.

 

 

First Type

 

Second Type

[Bozothenutter]

4 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

It looks to my eye that they have used the thickness of the reinforcing rim at the rim edge, which would perhaps be logical as that's what the edge looked like.  But we're talking fractions of a mm in 1/35. The inner ring was actually always deeper that the outer one, but again tiny fractions of a mm in scale.  I don't know for certain whether the Mk5 had the first or second pattern, but the Mk5 was essentially still a Mk3 which still used what were in effect Comet wheels designed for a much lighter tank.  I believe the second pattern came in on the Mk7.  But in service they would have been replaced with whatever was available and I can only assume that spare wheel production switched to each later pattern in turn.

 

Not wishing to question your lathe-fu, but if it were me I'd be beating a path to the Sovereign 2000 replacements, available in new or damaged form.  Don't know how available that brand is on your side of the Channel.  The MR Modellbau or Brach sets might be more economical on that side of The Great Wall (Ditch?) Of Customs Duties.

 

 

Thanks for that, to my great lament, the UK is (mostly) out for now, indeed due Mr Taxman and the carriers ' handling fee'.

I'll have a look at the other two, though I must admit using the lathe has my preference, not because of cost, but because of the challenge.

A hobby within a hobby so to say.

Would you happen to have inner diameters?

From other posts I understand the kit wheels are slightly large and I'm wondering if it is the wheen, the tire, or both.

[Kingsman]

I'd heard that too.  I don't have dimensions, but I can have if you give me a day or two.......

 

Here's a cross-section of the real Third Type to be going on with.  While you're on the lathe I'm not sure that Amusing got the tyre edge profile right.

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Das Abteilung
Bad spelling!

[Kingsman]

OK. Dimensions. First Type wheel.

Rim OD 695mm   =19.85mm in 1/35

Rim ID 655mm     =18.71mm

Tyre OD 795mm   =22.71mm

 

Interestingly I also measured some brand new Third Type wheels and they were 5mm smaller in all diameters. Not that this difference will show in 1/35 at 0.14mm.....

[Bozothenutter]

2 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

OK. Dimensions. First Type wheel.

Rim OD 695mm   =19.85mm in 1/35 AM kit 19.2mm

Rim ID 655mm     =18.71mm AM kit 18.4mm

Tyre OD 795mm   =22.71mm AM kit 23.0mm

 

Interestingly I also measured some brand new Third Type wheels and they were 5mm smaller in all diameters. Not that this difference will show in 1/35 at 0.14mm.....

 put my measurement in red.

and the profile is way off:

 

removing the inner rim will get that dia correct

and the tire has enough 'meat' to allow for a rim and a reshape.

 

Dare I ask for widths as well?

 

[Kingsman]

Ugh, those are ugly!  More sinkage than the Bismarck.......  Looks deeper than 0.3mm, which means I suspect some filling too.  I wonder what the new AFV Club plastic wheels are like.

 

I should have thought to measure the widths at the same time.  I can get them for you by the end of the week if that's OK.

 

I admire your ambition in fettling these wheels, but if it were me I'd be tempted to look for some after-market ones.......... I was going to do an AH Sho't and possibly an AVRE, but seeing other builds of AH's Mk5 kits I've decided against it and the Sho't has gone on the eBay pile.

[Bozothenutter]

23 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

I admire your ambition in fettling these wheels, but if it were me I'd be tempted to look for some after-market ones.......... I was going to do an AH Sho't and possibly an AVRE, but seeing other builds of AH's Mk5 kits I've decided against it and the Sho't has gone on the eBay pile.

no ambition here, just like using the lathe, so any excuse really....

[Kingsman]

OK.  More dimension information.  Apologies for delay - been laid low with snotty cold: remember when we used to suffer from those?

 

[Bozothenutter]

8 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

OK.  More dimension information.  Apologies for delay - been laid low with snotty cold: remember when we used to suffer from those?

 

 

Thanks for that!

 

cba with paint, but useful info:

 

white 50mm : 1.43 (1.7mm)
yellow 125mm : 3.57 (3.95)
blue rim width 155mm : 4.43 (4.55mm)
blue rim depth 90mm : 2.57 (2.2mm)

outside> in :

12mm:0.34
30mm:0.86
15mm:0.43
27mm:0.77
6mm: 0.17

 

Rim OD 695mm   =19.85mm in 1/35 (19.15mm)

Rim ID 655mm     =18.71mm  (18.4mm)

Tyre OD 795mm   =22.71mm (23mm)

 

so basically a complete remodel of the wheels, but there IS enough meat in the kit parts

[Kingsman]

4 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

so basically a complete remodel of the wheels, but there IS enough meat in the kit parts

Once again I admire your bravery and determination. 

 

A small lathe is something I've been promising myself for years, but despite moving house a couple of years ago and remodelling the workspace I still don't have the space.  I keep looking at the Unimats because of their multi-functionality but I hear that they have a mixed reputation.

 

But this again begs the much wider question about how and why kit manufactuers continue to goof like this.  Centurions are not exactly rare all over the world as reference pieces.  If I can get this information in a few minutes, why can't they?  The first Centurion kit to get the wheels remotely right are the new AFV Club ones: the Berlin Mk5 and the FV4005.  Hence the number of after-market alternatives, although Legend goofed it completely too. Whether AFV Club will re-issue the older kits with the new hard plastic tyres and link/length track remains to be seen.  I actually preferred the indy links.

[Bozothenutter]

20 minutes ago, Das Abteilung said:

Once again I admire your bravery and determination. 

 

A small lathe is something I've been promising myself for years, but despite moving house a couple of years ago and remodelling the workspace I still don't have the space.  I keep looking at the Unimats because of their multi-functionality but I hear that they have a mixed reputation.

 

But this again begs the much wider question about how and why kit manufactuers continue to goof like this.  Centurions are not exactly rare all over the world as reference pieces.  If I can get this information in a few minutes, why can't they?  The first Centurion kit to get the wheels remotely right are the new AFV Club ones: the Berlin Mk5 and the FV4005.  Hence the number of after-market alternatives, although Legend goofed it completely too. Whether AFV Club will re-issue the older kits with the new hard plastic tyres and link/length track remains to be seen.  I actually preferred the indy links.

It does doesn't it, it is not like the tolerances working with styrene need to be THAT big! (some kits actually click togetther these days)

 

The lathe and mill I have are by Sherline, a US brand, but available in the UK I think under the Denford name and from Mill Hill supplies.

Nice simple machines, perfect for small modelling stuff, got mine more than 20 year ago.

I have both machines set up on a tool cart 48x76 cm, so I can move it out of the way when not in use.

Just be sitting down when you hear about pricing 😉

[Bozothenutter]

Will draw the kit wheels and hopefully the real wheels in 3D, might take a while as I'm literally 'inventing the wheel'....

 

[Bozothenutter]

rough wheels finished, now need to find out how to compare....

afaik the 'real' wheel

 

the kit wheel

 

[Bozothenutter]

sometimes it helps drawing stuff to visualize.....

 

left is the 'real' wheel, right  the kit wheel.

If I'd only have to make subtractive changes, I'd have gone ahead, but this needs addition of material in the tire, the rim and the hart......too much work.

I may just reprofile the tire a bit and add the grooves. @Das Abteilung

[Kingsman]

Well that says it all about kit manufacturer research.........

 

But all is not lost.  Don't forget that tyres wore down in use.  Those dimensions are new. So you have some leeway on the overall diameter for worn tyres. But if that worn they would probably have lost a few chunks too. Amusing may have measured worn tyres.

[Bozothenutter]

1 hour ago, Das Abteilung said:

Well that says it all about kit manufacturer research.........

 

But all is not lost.  Don't forget that tyres wore down in use.  Those dimensions are new. So you have some leeway on the overall diameter for worn tyres. But if that worn they would probably have lost a few chunks too. Amusing may have measured worn tyres.

thanks for the encouraging words!

Will continue on the 'real' wheel and make a second version with adjustments to make it suitable for 3D printing, good practice with Fusion.