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Attention Luftwaffe Experts... He162 Color Help needed


Tokyo Raider
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Hi Friends...  I started a 6 model Luftwaffe build binge...  I am on my second plane, a He162 wk number 120067, otherwise known as White 4.  

 

I have found 4 to 5 photos of this plane that I am studying.  I even found a parted out photo of it late 1945/46 with faded paint, but topside of wing visible...

 

The help I need is from Experten on late war German aircraft...  i have read that the early builds of the He162 (which this is) had the fuselage painted in RLM71.  From the photos, the power egg is darker than fuse, so its probably RLM81.  The fuselage is slightly lighter than this, but way darker than RLM82 light green.

 

Do you guys know if there was truth to the RLM71 fuselage rumor, or are bets that its fuselage is RLM83 dark green?

 

The 83 worries me as its darker than 81, and power egg is darker than the fuselage.

 

Anyone out there done a He162 and careful about colors?  Thanks for any help you have...

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Hi Bob

 

I'm not one of the experten here, but I think I'm right in saying that RLM71 was discontinued for camo use (it was retained for propeller use) a year or so previously.  So I'd be surprised if the fuselage was indeed 71.  IMHO, the colours for the 162 are likely to be the late-war RLM 81 and 82, over a base of either RLM 76 or the late war variation referred to as '84'.  Bear in mind that what is sometimes called 'RLM83' green was more than likely just one of the late war variations of RLM81, which seems to have been produced in two or more discrete variants, one being a dark brown (or dark olive), and another being a dark green.  So the darker colour is probably going to be 81 (green or brown) while the lighter colour is going to be 82 (green).  I built a 162 a while back and finished it in the brown 81 + 82 combo.

 

(Correction re above - it was RLM70 which was retained for prop use - not 71.  I believe both were discontinued as camo colours though)

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Thanks Werdna...  i have some decal sheets and other claims online that Hienkel used up its stock of RLM71 on the early build of HE162s.  It seems the claim in several places.

 

The official RLM color spec for He162 does say 81/82, and that holds for later produced machines but photos of the plane I am doing are much darker than the 82 appears.  So like we do, we need to make a decision and build it...

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1 hour ago, Tokyo Raider said:

Thanks Werdna...  i have some decal sheets and other claims online that Hienkel used up its stock of RLM71 on the early build of HE162s.  It seems the claim in several places.

 

It's entirely plausible that they did this, I guess.  I don't know enough about the 162 to take a definitive view.  Either way, both green 81 and 71 are broadly 'dark green' in colour, so telling them apart in period pics might be difficult.

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20 minutes ago, Wulfman said:

Heinkel would have had RLM 71 in stock from their He-111 builds, and would have been authorised by the RLM to use up old stocks !

 

Wulfman

Yes...  that was the claim I read on the decal sheet I had and other posts online on the subject of He162 colors...

 

The bird I am building there are 5 photos of (so I am very lucky)...  the nacelle is definitely darker than the fuselage and tail.  So this says tail and fuselage are a second lighter than RLM81 color.

 

Then I compared the 5 photos to photos of RLM82 light green.  The he162 fuselage looks darker than rlm82.  So it could be rlm83 or rlm71.  I will sleep on it and decide tomorrow when I paint it...

 

Hienkel had bomber paints so would have rlm71 and 70 on hand when 81, 82 or 83 were unavailable.  Thats my best conjecture based on the 5 photos...

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IMO, you can remove some of the potential confusion by taking 'RLM83' out of the equation, which should at least narrow down the process of elimination.  There has been much discussion on the existence/non-existence of '83', with compelling arguments from the likes of Michael Ullman that it was actually a dark blue - and that the colour which has been historically labelled as '83' is, in reality, simply one of the aforementioned green shades of RLM81.  Even without that, it still brings us back to either a green/green or brown/green combo.  Depending on which paints you intend to use, there is still plenty of 'interpretation' on the individual colours anyway. 

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Rlm83 was specified as a Focke Wulf color with RLM75, on the dora build.  I agree it could be a substitute for 81 in some regard.

 

In cammo theory, RLM always combined a dark and lighter color for contrast.  So the 82, was the lighter color, and can be used with 81 or 83.

 

The 83 wouldnt be used with 81, but as you say could be a version of 81 or a stand in for the darker 81 as it also a dark color to be paired with a lighter color...

Edited by Tokyo Raider
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24 minutes ago, Tokyo Raider said:

Rlm83 was specified as a Focke Wulf color with RLM75, on the dora build. 

 

I'm not sure this was ever the case.  At the risk of diverting the thread, I'll just say that there are a number of discussions on here relating to RLM83, including this one linked to below:

 

 

Which goes back to what I was saying earlier - that it's simpler to just discount the '83' designation, as it is more than likely just a mis-identified green shade of 81.  Fundamentally though, you have a choice of dark(ish) brown, dark green and light green, regardless of the relevant RLM designation.  Within certain parameters, nobody can criticise the outcome, because there is no absolute proof either way ;) 

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I can't find it now, but the 83/75/76 was also on early 109K-4's before the 'anything goes' period after December 1944...  

 

I know I saw the RLM83 called out in Luftwaffe directive, so I believe it was a real RLM color (very dark green).

 

It was needed because in winter months, the RLM82 Bright Green would stick out on the ground and not be effective.  The Darker Green RLM83 obviously did a better job in winter.

 

I was not planning RLM83 on the He162, as the RLM81 is so recognized on the survivors.  My issue was what was the lighter color to pair up with 81, because there had to be something other than 82 on this plane I am doing.

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The RLM specifically directed the use of 81/71 or 82/70 combinations in order to use the remaining stocks of the earlier colors.  Additionally RLM 83 is not green, but blue.  Recent discoveries in the German records clearly establish this.  RLM 83 was developed for use on bombers operating in the Mediterranean, but did not see much use.

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1 hour ago, Vonbraun said:

The RLM specifically directed the use of 81/71 or 82/70 combinations in order to use the remaining stocks of the earlier colors.  Additionally RLM 83 is not green, but blue.  Recent discoveries in the German records clearly establish this.  RLM 83 was developed for use on bombers operating in the Mediterranean, but did not see much use.

Hi Vonbraun...  the 81/71 is what I think I see in the photos of the specific He162 that I am modeling...

 

The comment on 83, doesnt match anything I have seen.  Luftwaffe Med operations were virtually over a year before RLM83 was introduced.  I dont think I have seen it used this way unless its a unusual wellenmuster cammo, but those were case by case.

 

  The fun of Luftwaffe cammo is I have seen 'new findings' claims arise in modelling over past 50years!  

 

We do have 109s and 190ds with 83 on them and thats well established...

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Hallo

The umput from my side: Had access to the museum pieces located in Austria. In all, never heard about the color you mention. The production close to Vienna used to my knowledge the 76 as underside and 80s on top and upper side view.

Happy modelling 

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3 hours ago, Tokyo Raider said:

The comment on 83, doesnt match anything I have seen.  Luftwaffe Med operations were virtually over a year before RLM83 was introduced.  I dont think I have seen it used this way unless its a unusual wellenmuster cammo, but those were case by case.

 

In the discussion I linked to earlier, there is an original colour image of a Ju88 wearing this 'blue' camo

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Maybe it could be helpfull to seperate the "RLM 83 is blue or not" from the He 162 in question (I've seen the "evidence", but I'm not convinced yet, and in case it helps anybody, I will stomp my right foot when writing this).

 

Maybe it could turn out helpfull to take a look at the pictures available and talk about

- Probably very dark green, might be RLM 71

- Late war medium green (pick RLM number of your choice 81/82/83 "variant this or that" depending upon the temple you pray in)

- Late war dark green (pick RLM number of your choice 81/82/83)

- Late war braunviolett ( (pick RLM number of your choice 81/82/83)

 

Fake interpretation: https://www.airhistory.net/photo/300329/120067

 

Some interesting pics (scroll down a bit): https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/post/axis-warplane-survivors-german-aircraft-heinkel

 

Plane in question (interestingly dark around the gun):

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/aircrafts-2/he_162/120067-kassel-waldau-y-96-1945/ (engine cover "same" tone as fuselage (front and rear) to my cloudy mole eyes, rather "medium", not dark, note presumably "red" arrow rather medium too, before anybody says "maybe orthochromatic film" in order to get me excited)

120067-Kassel-Waldau_Y-96_1945.jpg

 

and https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/aircrafts-2/he_162/he-162-white-4-jg1/ (enging cover looks a tad darker than the front fuselage to me, note lovely preshading of panel lines done by Hr. Heinkel (or his slave labour), rear fuselage (upper) looks a tad lighter than front part of fuselage (strange!))

He_162_white_4-JG1.jpg

 

Better pictures? Better ideas?

Edited by Jochen Barett
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2 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

 

 

Plane in question (interestingly dark around the gun):

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/aircrafts-2/he_162/120067-kassel-waldau-y-96-1945/ (engine cover "same" tone as fuselage (front and rear) to my cloudy mole eyes, rather "medium", not dark, note presumably "red" arrow rather medium too, before anybody says "maybe orthochromatic film" in order to get me excited)

 

and https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/aircrafts-2/he_162/he-162-white-4-jg1/ (enging cover looks a tad darker than the front fuselage to me, note lovely preshading of panel lines done by Hr. Heinkel (or his slave labour), rear fuselage (upper) looks a tad lighter than front part of fuselage (strange!))

 

Better pictures? Better ideas?

Greetings Jochen...  yes these are 2 of the 5 photos I have of white 4.  I have a better view where the nacelle is clearly DARKER than the fuselage, however the fuselage is DARKER than the appearance of RLM82 Bright green.  This combined with claims of early He162s painted RLM71 on fuselage.  I am going with 81/71/76 for white 4.

 

As for the RLM83, its specified by RLM for 83/75/76 for fighters in winter months 44/45.  It doesnt look BLUE on these planes, so BLUE in photo could be exposure or a special color applied... maybe not RLM83 as on fighters.

 

This debate makes Luftwaffe models more fun because everyone has a theory or conjecture and in the end, the modeller can choose what he likes to paint the model.  

 

Thanks for all feedback and viewpoints!  My thoughs are as said at beginning...  83 could be the greener version of brown violet 81, or a substiture dark color in the 81 cammo schemes.  My modelart color chips show this.

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1 hour ago, Tokyo Raider said:

Greetings Jochen...  yes these are 2 of the 5 photos I have of white 4.  I have a better view where the nacelle is clearly DARKER than the fuselage, however the fuselage is DARKER than the appearance of RLM82 Bright green.  This combined with claims of early He162s painted RLM71 on fuselage.  I am going with 81/71/76 for white 4.

 

As for the RLM83, its specified by RLM for 83/75/76 for fighters in winter months 44/45.  It doesnt look BLUE on these planes, so BLUE in photo could be exposure or a special color applied... maybe not RLM83 as on fighters.

 

This debate makes Luftwaffe models more fun because everyone has a theory or conjecture and in the end, the modeller can choose what he likes to paint the model.  

 

Thanks for all feedback and viewpoints!  My thoughs are as said at beginning...  83 could be the greener version of brown violet 81, or a substiture dark color in the 81 cammo schemes.  My modelart color chips show this.

Hmm. I believe "specified" and "used" are two different things when we're talking about the sooty dark green that has previously been identified as 83. While it was definitely used and has been found on a number of recovered relics, I don't think that any official RLM directives or painting diagrams from that period ever specified it for use, instead calling for 81/82.

Edited by Rolls-Royce
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1 hour ago, Tokyo Raider said:

As for the RLM83, its specified by RLM for 83/75/76 for fighters in winter months 44/45.  It doesnt look BLUE on these planes, so BLUE in photo could be exposure or a special color applied... maybe not RLM83 as on fighters.

 

This is also addressed in the thread I linked to earlier. 

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This subject is one of the reasons I'm really hoping that JaPo finishes their Volume 3 of the Focke-Wulf 190D series someday. Among other things, they were going to discuss the discovery of cans of RLM paint, one of which was marked "81" on the remnants of the label, but which contained a dark green paint instead of the expected violet- or olive- brown. 

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Maybe a dark blue RLM 83 over white or duck egg green (RLM 84 version B, a tad lighter) "Marineflieger" He 162 would look nice too 😁

 

But judging from the Me 163 color pics our fellow BM is showing here https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/capture.htm there are more late war greens around than one might like.

 

Let us see and evaluate the other 3 pics of 120067!

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1 hour ago, Rolls-Royce said:

This subject is one of the reasons I'm really hoping that JaPo finishes their Volume 3 of the Focke-Wulf 190D series someday. Among other things, they were going to discuss the discovery of cans of RLM paint, one of which was marked "81" on the remnants of the label, but which contained a dark green paint instead of the expected violet- or olive- brown. 

 

I think if they did that, they would probably just be confirming what seems to have already been studied by Kiroff, Ullman and others (and not significantly disputed, as far as I'm aware) - that there was more than one version of 81.  As an example, on the RLM camo guide for the Ta152 (there was discussion on this topic here recently), 81 and 82 are specified as upper surface colours.  The RAF intelligence report on its captured Ta152s stated the upper surfaces were painted in 'various shades of green' - no mention of brown.  Either the painting instructions were ignored - necessarily or otherwise (which is possible, I suppose), or 81 was developed in more than one colour.

 

Having said that, I still believe brown is a more likely '81' colour for the He162, as far as I can tell..

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19 minutes ago, Werdna said:

 

I think if they did that, they would probably just be confirming what seems to have already been studied by Kiroff, Ullman and others (and not significantly disputed, as far as I'm aware) - that there was more than one version of 81.  As an example, on the RLM camo guide for the Ta152 (there was discussion on this topic here recently), 81 and 82 are specified as upper surface colours.  The RAF intelligence report on its captured Ta152s stated the upper surfaces were painted in 'various shades of green' - no mention of brown.  Either the painting instructions were ignored - necessarily or otherwise (which is possible, I suppose), or 81 was developed in more than one colour.

 

Having said that, I still believe brown is a more likely '81' colour for the He162, as far as I can tell..

I agree. But the more hard info/data points, the better. They were also considering producing paint chips based on those colors found and including them in the book when it was published. Remember, this was the 2008/2009 timeframe when all this was originally being talked about.

Edited by Rolls-Royce
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The belief that RLM 83 was green came about because researchers 50 years ago had a RLM document (Sammelmitteilung 2, dated 15 August 1944) listing RLM paints by number only, that is, with no descriptive terms or color samples.  All of these RLM paints were identified in other documents as to color, except RLM 83.  Concurrently, information about late war greens was also evolving.  Researchers had three different sample of late war greens.   RLM 81 and 82 accounted for two, so the remaining green must be the missing color for RLM 83. 

 

In reality there were only two late war greens RLM 82 and RLM 81, but the later was seen in two distinct forms, a dark green and a dark olive brown. This is why early researchers assumed there were three late war greens.

 

Recently more information on RLM 83 has surfaced.  There is a  RLM message documenting the development of a dark blue camouflage paint for use exclusively by aircraft operating over the Mediterranean Sea.  This paint was initially identified as 300/III during the testing phase but after acceptance was changed to RLM 83.  In November 1943  RLM  released documentation  announcing the introduction of RLM 83, and describes its use in with RLM 72 for seaplanes and RLM 70 for land based aircraft operating in the Mediterranean.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Vonbraun
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