RidgeRunner Posted December 26, 2021 Share Posted December 26, 2021 Hi all, While I await a rear end solution for my R29-powered Peruvian S-32M2K I am now decided on a build of my Modelsvit Su-20 kit as a Polish Su-20R, specifically aircraft ‘6252’. I have now worked out the camouflage pattern, courtesy of the “Polish Wings” book, and I have the decals. Where I am not clear is the range of colours used, as I usual for me. The scheme I will be painting with be the retirement scheme of tan/Light green/Dark Green/Brown over (Pale) Blue Grey. Does anyone out there have good colour references, please? The Polish Wings books seems a little adrift with its list of FS colours. Thanks a lot. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 I do have both the Pantera and Mastercraft releases with this scheme - I could look up the colours advised in the instructions, if that would help. Cheers, Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 I know that the box says Su-22M4, but is the general colour scheme any good? https://www.hataka-hobby.com/HTK-BS47-Polish-Air-Force-Su-22M4-paint-set Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted December 27, 2021 Author Share Posted December 27, 2021 13 hours ago, Hook said: I do have both the Pantera and Mastercraft releases with this scheme - I could look up the colours advised in the instructions, if that would help. Cheers, Andre Thanks Andre. I have an issue with kit instructions in that they often don’t tell the correct references. What I am seeking, if any Polish experts out there know, are the colour references from PAF records and any matches to model paints in the market. Thank you for your offer of the Pantera sheet, and yes please as it will add to my data bank :). I will PM my email address. 12 hours ago, Jabba said: I know that the box says Su-22M4, but is the general colour scheme any good? https://www.hataka-hobby.com/HTK-BS47-Polish-Air-Force-Su-22M4-paint-set Thanks mate. I took those details from the web yesterday. Some of the colours on the ‘M4s was different. Nevertheless it is good to know. My target aircraft in my reference photos was in a “Light Tan”, “NATO Brown”, “NATO Green”, and an Olive Green. The undersides were either Blue Grey or Pale Blue Grey, for which I have paints. The Polish Su-20 carried at least three camouflage variations in terms of colour! Fortunately I have references images for the period in question, with port, starboard and plan view images. I keep searching All my best to all, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAGATIGER Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 On 12/26/2021 at 5:31 PM, RidgeRunner said: Hi all, While I await a rear end solution for my R29-powered Peruvian S-32M2K I am now decided on a build of my Modelsvit Su-20 kit as a Polish Su-20R, specifically aircraft ‘6252’. I have now worked out the camouflage pattern, courtesy of the “Polish Wings” book, and I have the decals. Where I am not clear is the range of colours used, as I usual for me. The scheme I will be painting with be the retirement scheme of tan/Light green/Dark Green/Brown over (Pale) Blue Grey. Does anyone out there have good colour references, please? The Polish Wings books seems a little adrift with its list of FS colours. Thanks a lot. Martin Hehehee I notice that MArtin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted December 30, 2021 Author Share Posted December 30, 2021 @KRK4m @Stilwell @Linescriber @JWM @Piotr Mikolajski et al, Just wondering if you have any thoughts on this? Thank you. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiampieroSilvestri Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 (edited) I think it was painted in VVS colours.The Humbrol references are the following. Blue grey=7x Humbrol Hu87+3xHu34 Dark green=Hu117 Light brown=7xHu187+3xHu129 Sand=4xHu250+1xHu148 Saluti Giampiero Edited December 30, 2021 by GiampieroSilvestri 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr Mikolajski Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 On 12/27/2021 at 12:31 AM, RidgeRunner said: The Polish Wings books seems a little adrift with its list of FS colours. To be honest, I would look for equivalents from Akan paints range, and only then try to somehow translate them into paints from other manufacturers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 (edited) On 12/30/2021 at 11:56 PM, RidgeRunner said: Just wondering if you have any thoughts on this? Thank you I think they are not the NATO colors, most likely the Russian/Soviet one. Although the contemporary machines are beyond my range I remember that they were wearing the three color schemes in 1985/6 when I've seen them during my short compulsory military service. The colors apparently fades as can be seen on preserved machines. Better to believe in colors from pictures taken in active service in service and in museum (faded): The machines after overhauling certainly were repainted, likely with new set of colors.,, Regards J-W Edited January 1, 2022 by JWM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted December 31, 2021 Author Share Posted December 31, 2021 Thank you Giampero @GiampieroSilvestri, Jerry @JWM and Piotr @Piotr Mikolajski. I am sure they must have been Russian paints from when they were overhauled in Baranovichi. It gets confusing because there were (according to Polish Wings) three different colour combinations used. The most strikingly different were the Brown-based and Tan-based schemes. I am applying a little of my own thoughts because in many areas the Polish Wings book is erroneous. I am in no rush because I have others to finish first and so will experiment a bit :). Happy New Year to all! Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 For sure no NATO colors back then I guess Polish indigenous colors... match to eye... http://galeria.aviateam.pl/photo/1318 http://galeria.aviateam.pl/photos/2012-09-20/10676.jpg http://galeria.aviateam.pl/photo/10676 http://galeria.aviateam.pl/photos/2012-11-18/11832.jpg http://galeria.aviateam.pl/photo/11832 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milan Mynar Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 One photo of the Polish Su 20 from my collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayFranz Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 It's Su-22, not Su-20. Last flight of polish Su-20 was in 1998 (or 1999?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 17 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: @KRK4m @Stilwell @Linescriber @JWM @Piotr Mikolajski et al, Just wondering if you have any thoughts on this? Thank you. The last service flight of the Polish Su-20 took place in February 1997. Later, only single VFR flights to museums were made. The last of them (some 13 Su-20 have survived in Poland) took place in 1999. While serving in the Polish Air Force, their camouflage was consistent with Soviet practice - initially the planes were in NMF, after the overhaul (sometime in the early 1980s), they returned from the USSR painted silver gray. After a final overhaul (around 1990), they received the standard VVS camouflage in dark green, light brown and sand over blue gray. When # 4242 found its way to the Krakow Museum, we tried to describe its camouflage using FS595B chips - none was accurate. The closest results are FS24108 for green, 20117 for brown, 30279 for sand and 26329 for the bottom. Of course the colors have faded drastically since then. BTW, none of the upper surface colours match the Su-22M four-colour scheme Cheers Michael 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayFranz Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 (edited) Here's 6138 in colour camo. Edited December 31, 2021 by KayFranz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayFranz Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 And another one - 4245 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayFranz Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 And again 4245, in 1991. All three last photos by Jaroslaw Gwardys 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 Fine pictures! Although 4245 features the same shades of green and sand as 4242, the 3rd one is quite different - a khaki green instead of brown. Curious, as both (plus 4244 and 4246) were repainted in 1989. They were followed by 6134, 6252, 6262 and 6264 in 1990, then 6138, 6256, 6259 and 6265 in 1991 and finally 6135, 6136, 6250 and 7125 in 1992. Of the remaining 11 Polish Su-20s three were lost in crashes before the first overhaul and the remaining eight were overhauled only once in 1981-84. Cheers Michael 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr Mikolajski Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 4 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: It gets confusing because there were (according to Polish Wings) three different colour combinations used. The use of several different colours is not surprising, the same was true of the MiG-23s used in Poland and overhauled in Bulgaria, East Germany and the USSR. Even the overhauls in Poland did not guarantee the consistency of camouflage schemes, as can be seen in the Lim-5 and Lim-6 assault fighters. 4 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: I am applying a little of my own thoughts because in many areas the Polish Wings book is erroneous. I do not know what errors you have in mind. Usually publications from the Polish Wings series are prepared on the basis of good quality and reliable materials, often in cooperation with people who flew on the described planes or painted them. On the other hand, I actually never believe the FS colours given. The palette of FS hues is small, and actually not suitable for identifying the colours of non-US equipment. Specifying the FS equivalent either ends in consternation "what the hell is that", or we get the recipe "take this FS, add three drops of red, a pinch of green, a dash of blue and finally a medium sized fart of magic unicorn". Most often this doesn't work either. Back to the Su-20 colours. I am planning to buy the model myself, but have not yet decided on a camouflage scheme. As I looked through the photos, I came to the conclusion that it only makes sense to look through the Akan paint catalogue (acrylic 70000 series colours), as they are the only ones with a wide selection of colours used by the Soviet Air Force. Here, an example of three colours - 73026 (Dark Brown), 73055 (Green) and 73080 (Sand). They may correspond to some of the paints used in Su-20 overhauls, but in fact you would have to buy more paints and select them on the basis of photos so that the final effect satisfies you. You won't be sure anyway, but this way you can make something that will be a fairly reliable reconstruction. Personally I am almost 100% sure that 73026 is the dark brown seen on the top of the fuselage "6252", the others I don't have anything to choose from. Unfortunately, most of my paints are WW2 colours, I bought too few of the modern ones and will have to buy more. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted January 1, 2022 Author Share Posted January 1, 2022 Thanks Michael @KRK4m. That’s a great summary and I will include it in my research when I get home. thanks for the images Jarislaw @KayFranz 6 hours ago, Piotr Mikolajski said: I do not know what errors you have in mind. Usually publications from the Polish Wings series are prepared on the basis of good quality and reliable materials, often in cooperation with people who flew on the described planes or painted them. The Polish Wings books are certainly very comprehensive and the best reference available (as far as I know) for Polish subjects. However, in the Fitter volume there are a number of false references. As i am away at the moment I dont have more details but will pull them out when I return. The big one for me, that I remember, is the page that shows a top view photo of a Su-20 but the caption assigns it to the wrong aircraft. It is, in fact, ‘6252’ and not as shown. You can see by comparing it with other photos in the book. The colour referencing is not really accurate, and there are statements that only three machines remained silver/natural when there are photos online of a number of them in service at the end of their career. In fact, one (6131) is shown in the late 1990s in what appears to be a fresh coat of aluminium paint. Again, like the great notes from Michael above, I will absorb all this great data when I get home. Happy New Year to all! Martin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted January 1, 2022 Author Share Posted January 1, 2022 6 hours ago, Piotr Mikolajski said: Here, an example of three colours - 73026 (Dark Brown), 73055 (Green) and 73080 (Sand). They may correspond to some of the paints used in Su-20 overhauls, but in fact you would have to buy more paints and select them on the basis of photos so that the final effect satisfies you. You won't be sure anyway, but this way you can make something that will be a fairly reliable reconstruction. These colours look good, Piotr. I use enamels but will certainly use the range as a reference. Generally I use Colourcoats, which offer a good range of colours, including VVS. All this will keep me busy in the dark evenings Martin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr Mikolajski Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: Generally I use Colourcoats, which offer a good range of colours, including VVS. All this will keep me busy in the dark evenings Never tried Colourcoats, I'm not sure if I ever had one can in my hand OK, back to Su-20 colours. Below is PNG file with all the colours mentioned in "Polish Wings" book. With the colour FS 32108 it's probably a typo, as it was described as "Light Olive" and the FS x2xxx range is for orange. I have added a sample for FS 34108 in the picture instead. All FS samples were taken from https://cp-techusa.com/paint_fed-std-595.html page, sometimes using equivalents with the first digit from gloss or semi-gloss range. Personally I think Akan colours have shades much closer to the photos than these FS ones. Personally I think Akan colours have shades much closer to the photos than these FS samples, as Akan company make their paints with use of original paint samples from Russian manufacturers or taken from museum aircraft / artifacts. I hope anyone interested in looking for proper colour of Polish camouflaged Su-20s find this sample compilation useful. Edited January 2, 2022 by Piotr Mikolajski Typo 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 7 hours ago, Piotr Mikolajski said: OK, back to Su-20 colours. Below is PNG file with all the colours mentioned in "Polish Wings" book. With the colour FS 32108 it's probably a typo, as it was described as "Light Olive" and the FS x2xxx range is for orange. I have added a sample for FS 34108 in the picture instead. All FS samples were taken from https://cp-techusa.com/paint_fed-std-595.html page, sometimes using equivalents with the first digit from gloss or semi-gloss range. Personally I think Akan colours have shades much closer to the photos than these FS ones. You're right - 32108 is definitely a typo. The 34108 you put instead is the colour I mentioned on December 31 as the closest FS equivalent to the shade found on the 4242 when it arrived at the Polish Aviation Museum about 8 years after the overhaul. This could be the reason why it is the most faded (least colour saturated) shade of greens you have compared. BTW, could you add brown 20117 and sand 30279 chips to the comparison - just to see how much they differ from the shades mentioned by "Polish Wings". Cheers Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted January 2, 2022 Author Share Posted January 2, 2022 That is a fantastic, Piotr and Michael :). It seems like I prompted a lot of work for which I am very grateful. I think 6252 had the Baranovichi dark II scheme? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 Great info and pics here!! Interestingly that although Poland had a really big Fitter fleet, obviously overhaul incl painting was done outside! The main difference between the Su-20 and much later ( 10-15 years, no) Su-22M4 was the nose incorporated laser and camera targeting system allowing guided missile deployment plus obviously chaff/ flare dispensers on the rear fuselage no? Additional mid- wing pylons for R-60 air-to air missiles as well...turning it into an Eastern mini-Tornado capability wise... The Su-20 I guess was limited to dumb ordnance, no? KH-23 maybe? Somehow it grows on me during this discussion...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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