Martlet IVs on "USS Robin"

[stevehnz]

In Bruce archers reference on Clubhyper.com, there is a Wildcat Mk II noted with P&W R-1830, no upper cowl intake & folding wings, an F4F-4A equivalent? Yes?

Steve.

[ClaudioN]

Maybe of help: full-size, high resolution image of HMS Victorious with USS Cimarron alongside here:

https://digital.lib.ecu.edu/26834

[KRK4m]

2 hours ago, stevehnz said:

In Bruce archers reference on Clubhyper.com, there is a Wildcat Mk II noted with P&W R-1830, no upper cowl intake & folding wings, an F4F-4A equivalent? Yes?

 

IMHO (but I may be wrong) all (or most) Martlets IIs did not have an upper lip intake - this is how they can be distinguished from the USN F4F-4s. Remember that all (or almost all) TwinWasp-engined Martlets in RN markings with this small intake belong to batch JV325/636, which makes them Eastern-built FM-1s. For this reason they only have 4 wing guns, while the ones aboard the USS Robin have clearly six. So (again to me) they look like standard Martlets IIs - a variant never used (according to "sources") neither by the US Navy nor by the FAA squadrons that set off on HMS Victorious during this 1943 expedition.

Were these then some Martlets II missed by RN until 1943, embarked on board HMS Victorious in Norfolk or in PH? If so, they should also bear British code letters, serials and Royal Navy inscriptions. However, from the fact that they were wearing the original 1942 USN camouflage, it should be concluded that they arrived on board HMS Victorious earlier than the Martlets IV, which were repainted not earlier than February 1943 (previously this new USN pattern was not disclosed anywhere). And once again you can see how much the 'source documents' are worth, although the fact that I am right does not make me happy.

 

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

Maybe of help: full-size, high resolution image of HMS Victorious with USS Cimarron alongside here:

https://digital.lib.ecu.edu/26834

 

Thanks Claudio for this link. Admittedly, I have had this photo in this resolution in my archive for years, but I have not written down where I got it from. But on that basis I insisted on the R-1820 Cyclone engines in these darker Martlets. And now, thanks to you, everyone can see it.

By the way, it is worth noting that at least 4 out of 7 machines standing in the very bow of the ship have squadron numbers and code letters repeated on the upper surface of the wings - folded wings obscured the markings on the fuselage and only this way the pilot could quickly find his plane. The point is that these markings on the wings can be seen both on "1942 Gray" airplanes with the R-1830 TwinWasp engine (Martlet II ???) and on dark Martlet IVs with the R-1820 Cyclone engine. There are also two ways of placing these markings - closer to or further from the leading edge, although the version of the aircraft (and its camouflage) do not clearly determine this: the "1942 Gray" plane in the second row has these markings above the double break in the wing folding line (as in the darker "1943 Blue" Martlet IVs), and the "1942 Gray" plane in the first row has them below this step, which is slightly wider when viewed from above in flight.

Cheers

Michael

[Graham Boak]

According to Sturtivant's FAA Aircraft, the Martlet Mk.II had the Cyclone and four wing guns.  Histories are provided for AJ100 to AJ153, All of which seem to have been posted to Indian Ocean bases and served on carriers such as Illustrious, Formidable and Indomitable including Operation Pedestal.  Later in their lives several were sent to the UK. often for 768 squadron in the training role. 

[KRK4m]

4 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

The US delivery report says no naval aircraft for the RN in May 1942 or January 1943, but 221 June to December 1942.  The RAF contract cards report Martlet IV deliveries from August 1942 and when you count the individual entries you end up with slightly different monthly totals than the summary totals reported before.  Using the individual entries for where the aircraft was first sent the totals include 130 to UK or Speke August to December 1942, 29 to Mombasa October 1942, along with 4 lost at sea and 19 to unknown destinations, while the imports report says 134 arrived UK August 1942 to February 1943 and 30 arrived Mombasa November 1942, total 164 leaving 56 to be accounted for, versus 19 unknowns in the individual entries.  Noting the imports report would exclude any lost en route, retained in the US or moved as equipment of a formed military unit, which would include those on Victorious.

 

RAF Contract Cards for serials FN100 to 319, the destinations are taken from scanned microfilm of hand written originals that are hard to read at times, if you think the entry is wrong there is a good chance you are correct.

29 for Mombasa FN156 to 167, FN172 to 188.

4 Lost at Sea FN205, FN206, FN207, FN240

8 for 590 (yes 590) squadron, FN122 to 125, FN130 to 133 (September 1942)

8 for 890 squadron, FN169, FN170, FN171, FN196, FN197, FN199, FN293, FN294 (6 in October, 2 in November 1942)

14 for 894 squadron, FN128, FN168, FN198, FN227 to 236, FN298 (first in September, 12 in October, last in December 1942)

1 for 896 squadron FN100 (November 1942)

7 for 898 squadron FN297, FN301 to 306 (November 1942)

16 Unknown (blank or no entry) FN290, FN291, FN292, FN295, FN296, FN299, FN300, FN307, FN309 to 319 (first 3 delivered in November but the destination is illegible, possibly a squadron or to UK)

Rest (130) to UK, 10 in August, 41 in September, 69 in October, 1 in November and 9 in December 1942.

As (unfortunately) "in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death... [B. Franklin] - the only serial numbers of Martlet IVs known to me during their service on the USS Robin are the numbers of machines lost in accidents, fortunately mostly without casualties in people. Crossing the data of those 16 lost machines, only 3 appear on your list as delivered: FN132 to Squadron 590 (should be 890) in September 42 and FN297 and FN306 to Squadron 898 in November 42. The others are:

• in Squadron 882 - FN104,
• in Squadron 896 - FN139, FN221, FN271, FN280, FN300 and FN317,
• in Squadron 898 - FN191, FN238, FN250, FN251, FN264 and FN274.

This confirms our supposition that the planes boarded at HMS Victorious in Norfolk in January 43 are not included in UK import reports.

Cheers

Michael

[KRK4m]

23 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

According to Sturtivant's FAA Aircraft, the Martlet Mk.II had the Cyclone and four wing guns.  Histories are provided for AJ100 to AJ153, All of which seem to have been posted to Indian Ocean bases and served on carriers such as Illustrious, Formidable and Indomitable including Operation Pedestal.  Later in their lives several were sent to the UK. often for 768 squadron in the training role. 

 

Absolutely not. Check it out http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/wildcatfaaba_1.htm

The Martlet Mk.II had a Twin Wasp engine and six guns in folding wings. And don't tell me (please) that Sturtivant can be so wrong.

Cheers

Michael

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

On 05/03/2022 at 08:03, EwenS said:

20/12/42 Victorious sails for Norfolk carrying 12 Martlet IV of 882 squadron and Albacores of 832.

So 12 returned from Britain, of which 10 were lost, FN139, FN191, FN221, FN238, FN250, FN251, FN264, FN271, FN274, FN280.

 

49 minutes ago, KRK4m said:

the only serial numbers of Martlet IVs known to me during their service on the USS Robin are the numbers of machines lost in accidents,

So the import report says 164 arrivals, 12 returned, then account for the 4 lost at sea and we have 220-164-4+12 = 64 Martlet IV that were nominally available for Victorious, of which 16 were lost in accidents, leaving 48 that presumably stayed in the US or even the South Pacific after the deployment.

 

To ask the obvious stupid question, how many Martlet did Victorious have aboard when departing the South Pacific, did any get left behind as they were under repair for example?

[Graham Boak]

I wouldn't say that Sturtivant couldn't be wrong: he acknowledges the problems with his Mk.IIIs.  The Photo in Bruce Archer's article does show an AJ example with the Twin Wasp.  However I had missed the AM batch.  Here he has 24 (P&W, six guns) being delivered via  HMS Illustrious, with the remaining 12 not mentioned as being on Illustrious but arriving in the UK at the same time.  A bit much of a coincidence for me.

 

Switching to Mk.IVs, he has an order for 220 aircraft with individual histories for all 220.  The majority were delivered to the UK, with a sizeable number going to Mombasa.  One batch FN227 to 236 was delivered to Norfolk Va. for 892 Sq on HMS Dasher,  A batch from FN297n was then delivered to Quonset Point for 896 and 898 Sqs in October 1942, followed by another batch for 882 and 896 in November.  882 had already taken 12 Mk.IV on board before leaving the UK.

 

So where are the missing 48?  None left in the US.  (OK, one, but we know it went to the UK.)  Victorious simply had more on board than a simple headcount of squadron allocations would suggest.

[Graham Boak]

I wonder if some of the "lost" numbers are because the surviving Mk.IVs on Victorious were not, as said above, returned to the USA, but continued in service with the FAA in the UK.  It seems possible that these are additional to those classified as imports in 1942.  Presumably they would be expected to appear when Victorious returned?  I fail to understand why 882's 12 aircraft need be considered at all - they were not returned to the USA authorities, they were merely on Victorious when she sailed from the UK, and stayed with Victorious until lost or returned to the UK.  It seems to me that if we discount these 12, and add the suggested 24 aircraft taken up by 896 and 898 on formation, plus a few losses by the units in US waters, plus a few reserves, these 48 will have disappeared.

 

 I can't see Ian's photo, but I suggest that had Mk.IVs in USN camouflage been wandering around in the UK someone would have commented or photographed.  Not necessarily, of course, but it would be a gap. 6G would suggest to me an 882 Sq aircraft.  Squadrons of the FAA suggests the 7 code was used by both 882 and 898, but as 882 would have been the senior unit then they would have been expected to carry the code 6.

 

I would further point out that a number of those listed by Geoffrey as being with 882 Sq have no connection noted in FAA Aircraft, but as at least three of them travelled to the US onboard Victorious, it seems likely that they were.  At least one more probably did the same: FN139 is recorded with 896 Sq before this unit was formed.

 

I remain more than a little surprised to see that this discussion (on numbers and use) has reached this stage without more people than just Claudio actually consulting FAA Aircraft, the only source available for the history of every FAA aircraft, taken from the original FAA records before they were destroyed.  Of course this is not perfect, and almost unobtainable nowadays, but copies are around.  The revised edition is expected, if not this year then quite soon.  I don't expect it to be a lot different in this area.

[iang]

On 06/03/2022 at 13:15, KRK4m said:

As (unfortunately) "in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death... [B. Franklin] - the only serial numbers of Martlet IVs known to me during their service on the USS Robin are the numbers of machines lost in accidents, fortunately mostly without casualties in people. Crossing the data of those 16 lost machines, only 3 appear on your list as delivered: FN132 to Squadron 590 (should be 890) in September 42 and FN297 and FN306 to Squadron 898 in November 42. The others are:

• in Squadron 882 - FN104,
• in Squadron 896 - FN139, FN221, FN271, FN280, FN300 and FN317,
• in Squadron 898 - FN191, FN238, FN250, FN251, FN264 and FN274.

This confirms our supposition that the planes boarded at HMS Victorious in Norfolk in January 43 are not included in UK import reports.

Cheers

Michael

One of the photos in my album shows 7F from the front.

 

[ClaudioN]

Unfortunately, Martlet variants in Sturtivant are a bit messed up, only for Mk.I/II/III, because of some confusion in records.

If it can help here is a summary, reported in order of delivery:

 

Between July 1940 and October 1941

Mk. I - Wright Cyclone engine - AX824-AX829, BJ507-BJ527, BJ554-BJ570, BT447-BT456 (lost at sea), AL236-AL262

total delivered by Grumman: 81

total received: 71

the first 54 serials were allocated in Britain, the last 27 were taken from a serial batch allocated to the British Purchasing Commission -- AL231-AL235 were also allocated but not taken up

 

Mk. II - P&W Twin Wasp engine, fixed wing: A.M.954-A.M.963

total delivered by Grumman: 10

total received: 9

A.M.954 retained by Grumman in the USA for trials

Note: these Mk.IIs were redesignated Mk. III, at least on paper

 

Mk. III - P&W Twin Wasp engine, fixed wing: Bu.No. 3875-3904, received serials: AX724-AX747, AX753, AX754, AX761, HK840-HK842

total delivered by Grumman (as F4F-3A): 30

total received: 30

Note: serials allocated to Mk.IIIs in the Middle East were taken from serial batches allocated to RAF Middle East to cover local acquisitions (first batch: AX670-AX769 - second batch: HK820-HK999, HL107-HL426) - this information comes from Bruce Robertson "British Military Aircraft Serials"

Total number of fixed-wing Martlets actually received by the FAA: 110

 

Between November 1941 and April 1942

Mk. II - P&W Twin Wasp engine, folding wing with six 0.5 in machine guns: A.M.964-A.M.999, AJ100-AJ153

total delivered by Grumman: 90

total received: 86

AJ107, AJ109-AJ11 lost at sea

 

Mk. IV - Wright Cyclone engine, folding wing with six 0.5 in machine guns: FN100

total delivered by Grumman: 1

FN100 initially retained by Grumman in the USA for trials

 

I am reasonably certain of these information. A few years ago I discussed some data with Bruce Archer, they match with what you can read in his reference work.

Any small addition comes from what I "found" since then -- but it's all somewhere in books or in the web for anybody to read. Actually, mine is just a puzzle game.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

What the USN Record of Acceptances has to say about the F4F variants.

XF4F-3 (XF4F-2, XF4F-1), engine P&W XR-1830-76.  Carrier – low wing monocoque – replaces XF4F-1 design.  Returned to contractor’s works for modification from XF4F-2 to XF4F-3 in August 1938.  Delivered Anacostia April 1939 for trials as XF4F-3 C-63072.  Returned to contractor’s works June 1939.  Finally accepted August 1939.

F4F-3, first order engine P&W R-1830-76.  Carrier – Low wing.  Catapult, Development of XF4F-3.  Later orders engine P&W R-1830-76 or 86, manufactured as landplanes, conversion to seaplanes by service personnel.

F4F-3 (G-36A, Martlet I), engine Wright GR-1820-G205A-2.

F4F-3 (G-36B, Martlet II), engine P&W R-1830-S3C4G

F4F-3A, engine P&W R-1830-90, carrier development of F4F-3, (Martlet III)

XF4F-4, engine P&W R-1830-76, hydraulically operated folding wings.

F4F-4, engine P&W R-1830-86, Carrier development of XF4F-4, manually operated floating wings, no floatation.

F4F-4B (Martlet IV), engine P&W R-1830-G205A furnished by Britain.

XF4F-5, engine Wright R-1820-40.

XF4F-6, engine P&W R-1830-90, furnished by contractor.

F4F-7, engine P&W R-1830-86, development of F4F-3 long range reconnaissance, no armament, armour, flotation nor protected fuel, photographic.

XF4F-8, engine Wright R-1820-56, development of F4F-4 with improved slotted flaps.

FM-1, engine P&W R-1830-86, constructed from same specification as F4F-4.  Martlet V.

FM-2, engine Wright R-1820-56 (early) or -72W, similar to FM-1 except engine, developed from XF4F-8, Wildcat VI.

End USN document.

 

The Martlet II order had 10 with fixed wings, 90 with folding wings.  AM954 is listed movement S.65363 lost at sea on 23 February 1942 in the contract cards, same as for AJ107, 109, 110 and 111.  Mark II order AM954 to 963 (fixed wings) were delivered first, then AJ100 to 153, then AM964 to 999.  USN acceptance report has 10 in March 1941, 1 in June, 49 from August to December 1941, 1 in February, 33 in March and 6 in April 1942.  The contract cards are complete, none were left in the US at the end of 1942, according to the US exports were 9 in April 1941, then 5, 6, 11, 24, 0, 45 January to June 1942, total 100, it does mean as of end 1941 there were 51 accepted Martlet II awaiting export.

 

The Greek order F4F-3A aircraft were accepted in March 1941.

 

The contract cards list the mark I engine as Wright Cyclone G.R. 1820 – G205A, Martlet II P&W R.1830 – S3C4G.

 

My list of where the Martlet IV were first delivered to uses the delivery dates, which of course come before arrival at the destination, so for example the first Martlet IV acceptances were in June 1942, first arrivals in Britain in August.  With Victorious known to be headed to the US stopping exports from the US until the carrier was equipped seems logical, which explains the drop off in exports from December 1942.  Plus the need to equip the escort carriers, Attacker commissioned in September, Battler and Stalker in October.

 

According to the US the last Martlet IV acceptances were in November 1942, last deliveries in December, while the British report the last arrivals in Britain in February 1943.  The import reports do not have arrivals of 56 Martlet IV, but 4 were lost at sea, so 52 are unaccounted for.  The Martlet IV order was lend lease. (LL-83734 dated 30 June 1941).

 

Victorious departed the US in February 1943 with 36 Martlet IV, 12 of which came from Britain (assuming no training losses), 24 from stocks in the US, the armoured carrier web site talks of 47 Martlet IV being available at the time, assuming that was east, not west coast and the 47 includes the ones which came from Britain leaves 52-24 = 28 Martlet IV in the US of which we know 11 were left behind early February 1943, but then available of course could mean serviceable, not total stocks.  28 Martlets = 2 FAA Squadrons equipped in the US and moved as formed military units, outside the import accounting system, the 10 for the fighter squadron on HMS Dasher would be obvious candidates.

 

Victorious loses 16 Martlet before returning to the US, 11 of which are ones that came from Britain, then any Martlet IV on board were exchanged for FM-1/Wildcat V before departure for Britain.  Which leaves 24-5 = 19 of the Martlet IV Victorious took on board unaccounted for numbers wise, presumably some lost in the US by FAA units training there, the rest shipped as part of a formed unit or left in the South Pacific.

 

While I can see pressure to leave as many aircraft behind in the South Pacific as possible, with Victorious heading back to Pearl Harbor with a nucleus “self defence” air group, like in the Atlantic crossing, given the merchant shipping situation I do not see the USN deliberately shipping Martlet IV to the South Pacific for Victorious for the same reason, given the known handing over of standard USN F4F-4, yet there is the report of the losses in a Hurricane en route to Pearl Harbor.  Against the leaving them behind push is the slightly non standard F4F-4B versus F4F-4 and the Admiralty holding onto a scarce resource.

 

I do not have the relevant references to know what other (if any) FAA squadrons formed in the US and deployed from there equipped with Martlet IV, the number of Martlet IV available in February 1943  indicates 1 before February 1943, maybe 892 squadron on Dasher.  I also do not know what Martlet if any were left in the US for the training units to use.  Three squadrons deployed from the US plus some local losses would account for the 28 left behind and 19 returned Martlet IV.  If the individual aircraft histories in Ray Sturtivant’s book indicate most to all made it to Britain or a British controlled port then either the export report has missed some or the RN carriers departing the US carrying any Martlet IV were officially doing so as part of military units.  As another example of the 312 Martlet/Wildcat V reported accepted for the RN, only 268 are in the import reports, Victorious returned to the UK in September 1943 with plenty of Martlet V on board, official Martlet V imports were 5 in September and 10 in October.

 

Summary: 220 Martlet IV built in the US, 164 reported arriving at British controlled ports, 4 lost at sea, leaving 52 unaccounted for, 12 re-exported to US on Victorious, so now 64 in US, 36 of these reported to be on Victorious when it left the US east coast, leaving 28 behind, less 10 for Dasher leaves 18,  then 16 lost on Victorious during the deployment, leaving 20 of those taken from the east coast unaccounted for, so we have 38 unaccounted for as far as the import reporting system is concerned, or say 2 fighter squadrons worth formed in the US, shipped as military units, outside the importing accounting system, or a combination of that plus training losses plus left behind in the Pacific, or simply an error in the import report.

[Ed Russell]

56 minutes ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

FM-2, engine Wright R-1820-56 (early) or -72W, similar to FM-1 except engine, developed from XF4F-8, Wildcat VI.

Similar in that it was a Wildcat but with taller tail to counteract engine power. Cowling chord was intermediate and had different arrangement for exhausts, no external intakes. No lower windows.

[Graham Boak]

All of those on Victorious returned to the UK, as seen by their further histories as listed.  If Victorious took on Mk.Vs for ferrying to the UK then this was additional to not instead of the Mk.IVs.   There would appear to be no purpose in offloading Mk.IVs in the US for later reshipping, a reshipping that is not recorded anywhere.

 

Moving backwards in time. All late-production Mk.IVs in the US were either set aside for Victorious, and there are only three possible exceptions before the end of production.  FN298 is recorded at Quonset Point with 894 Sq, but as Quonset Point was used by 898 Sq at this time, receiving all those aircraft around and after FN298, I assume that this is a mistake for 898.  FN308 was shipped to the UK, as was the last Mk.IV  FN319 before the arrival of the carrier.   Victorious did lose several Mk.IVs whilst in the US, including two in deck landing accidents during exercises with Attacker - presumably this ship was working up in the US at the same time.  She was forced to look for spare F4F-3s because there were no more Mk.IVs.

 

To check on 894 Sq, they are recorded as forming up at Norfolk with six Mk.IV, returning to the UK on HMS Battler.  Two of their aircraft are FN168 and 169, but these seem to have been immediately passed to 890 also working up at this time, and apparently slightly ahead of 894.  These two were supposedly shipped to Mombasa but evidently not.  A batch of four later aircraft FN227 to 230 were sent to Norfolk for 894 immediately followed by six for 892 Sq on Archer.  There are a small number of suspicious other entries under "sent to Mombasa" but later recorded in the UK, which I predict will include two extra aircraft for 894.  The date given for FN298 is after the unit's arrival on Battler, but not by much.

 

As 890 has appeared in the tourney, of her six aircraft FN170 and 171 are recorded for the unit on the same date as FN168 and 169.  Suspicion here fall on on for FN165 and 167, both reputedly sent to Mombasa but without any African histories.  The question is posed on how many of the aircraft allocated to South Africa were actually received, and hence the accuracy of the import records.  A quick stab suggest FAA Aircraft records 32 aircraft noted as "sent to Mombasa" but as stated there is a strong suggestion that some of these were diverted.  The intention may well have been to replace these with later builds, but these were then hoovered up by Operation Robin.

 

As to why so many were sent to Mombasa, could this indicate the intended operational area for Victorious before being diverted to the South Pacific?

[EwenS]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

All of those on Victorious returned to the UK, as seen by their further histories as listed.  If Victorious took on Mk.Vs for ferrying to the UK then this was additional to not instead of the Mk.IVs.   There would appear to be no purpose in offloading Mk.IVs in the US for later reshipping, a reshipping that is not recorded anywhere.

 

Moving backwards in time. All late-production Mk.IVs in the US were either set aside for Victorious, and there are only three possible exceptions before the end of production.  FN298 is recorded at Quonset Point with 894 Sq, but as Quonset Point was used by 898 Sq at this time, receiving all those aircraft around and after FN298, I assume that this is a mistake for 898.  FN308 was shipped to the UK, as was the last Mk.IV  FN319 before the arrival of the carrier.   Victorious did lose several Mk.IVs whilst in the US, including two in deck landing accidents during exercises with Attacker - presumably this ship was working up in the US at the same time.  She was forced to look for spare F4F-3s because there were no more Mk.IVs.

 

To check on 894 Sq, they are recorded as forming up at Norfolk with six Mk.IV, returning to the UK on HMS Battler.  Two of their aircraft are FN168 and 169, but these seem to have been immediately passed to 890 also working up at this time, and apparently slightly ahead of 894.  These two were supposedly shipped to Mombasa but evidently not.  A batch of four later aircraft FN227 to 230 were sent to Norfolk for 894 immediately followed by six for 892 Sq on Archer.  There are a small number of suspicious other entries under "sent to Mombasa" but later recorded in the UK, which I predict will include two extra aircraft for 894.  The date given for FN298 is after the unit's arrival on Battler, but not by much.

 

As 890 has appeared in the tourney, of her six aircraft FN170 and 171 are recorded for the unit on the same date as FN168 and 169.  Suspicion here fall on on for FN165 and 167, both reputedly sent to Mombasa but without any African histories.  The question is posed on how many of the aircraft allocated to South Africa were actually received, and hence the accuracy of the import records.  A quick stab suggest FAA Aircraft records 32 aircraft noted as "sent to Mombasa" but as stated there is a strong suggestion that some of these were diverted.  The intention may well have been to replace these with later builds, but these were then hoovered up by Operation Robin.

 

As to why so many were sent to Mombasa, could this indicate the intended operational area for Victorious before being diverted to the South Pacific?

In the grand scheme of things, shipment of Martlet IV to Mombasa in Aug 1942 makes perfect sense for a number of reasons, always remembering the planning time required in advance of such dispatches.

 

Kilindini, the port for Mombasa, was the home of the Eastern Fleet at this time. From April to July 1942 Indomitable, Formidable and Illustrious had been attached to that Fleet with all three being Martlet users. There would have been ongoing wastage of the Mk.II already in theatre from earlier in the year. Indomitable was withdrawn in July to take part in Operation Pedestal. Then, with Indomitable damaged, Formidable was withdrawn at the end of August, with the intention of replacing Indomitable in the Med but she went to the U.K. first. That left Illustrious in the Indian Ocean still with two squadrons of Martlets aboard.

 

When discussions began about assisting the USN in the Pacific, the initial British proposal by WSC to FDR was to send Victorious AND Illustrious if the USN would lend Ranger to the Home Fleet. The response from FDR was to accept one carrier - Illustrious (which he specifically named and probably because she was already in the Indian Ocean). By the end of 1942 Illustrious needed a refit and in fact returned home in Feb 1943 to receive that. Victorious had been refitted in Sept/Oct 1942 before Operation Torch and had the latest Air Direction Room facilities that Illustrious lacked, so it then probably made sense to the Admiralty to send her and not Illustrious.

 

The Eastern Fleet was then without a carrier until the escort carrier Battler arrived with Swordfish and Seafires in Oct. The next time the Eastern Fleet needed Wildcats was when 890 squadron arrived in Ceylon without aircraft in March 1944. They collected Wildcat V and went aboard Atheling in May.

 

With no demand for Martlets in the Indian Ocean beyond Jan 1943, it would then make sense to have any surplus stock shipped elsewhere.

 

 

[Graham Boak]

I've no argument with your main points: however still feel that in the absence of any other carrier, Victorious would have gone to the Eastern Fleet but for the more urgent call for Operation Robin.  I would however have thought that Martlets/Wildcat continued in the Indian Ocean after mid-1943.  For the moment I'm away from my books to confirm that.

 

PS  Reading on into the Mk.Vs, at least 15 of these (from a longer run of some 30) are specifically stated to be delivered in early September 1943 from US bases to specific FAA squadrons.  882, 896 and 198.  Other serials (not all) in this range go to the same units but delivery method and times are not specified.  FAA Squadrons have these units reforming onto the Mk.V on their arrival in the UK in mid-September.  Presumably onto the aircraft they'd just brought back.  As they were then posted to escort carriers, this suggests at least 18 were brought over.

 

PPS On the subject of Mk.IVs in the US, the subject is muddied by the presence of 738 Sq at Lewiston providing advanced fighter training for pilots fresh from US schools.  They operated at least one Mk.IV, FN315, although this spent the period of Operation Robin with 882 and was only allocated to 738 in September 1943.  There may be one or two more to be dug out, although I'd have thought that at this stage Victorious would have had priority..

[ClaudioN]

Perhaps we should remember that when Britain considered the first order for 100 G-36Bs this was intended to enable four fighter squadrons to be formed, that is, 12 aircraft initial establishment (IE), plus 100% reserves.

The Martlet IV order was initially for 150 aircraft, later increased to 220. By the same token, 150 aircraft would mean six squadrons with 12-aircraft IE, plus 100% reserves. Accounting for the need to build up stocks in different parts of the world, the FAA was even trying to plan for a higher quotient, up to 190% reserves overseas. In the event this never materialised, simply due to the fact that Grumman could not produce so many aircraft. Keeping this in mind, let's have a look at what happened.

 

There were five Martlet IV squadrons formed in the USA:

• 890, 892 and 894, whose Martlets were ferried to the UK aboard Battler. I counted 20 aircraft in total, based on Sturtivant serials
• 896 and 898, whose Martlets were embarked in Victorious. Records suggest 24-25 aircraft.

The former three units were smaller. Being intended for escort carriers their IE was probably just 6 aircaft.

 

In the UK, Martlet IV progressively re-equipped former Eastern Fleet fighter squadrons on return of their carriers. These were 882, 888 and 881, in that order. The only new squadron was 893, making a total of four units. However, some of these retained a mixed complement of both Mk. IV and Mk. II, as Mk. IVs were simply not enough.

 

By the time Victorious returned in the UK the Martlet V was being supplied to the FAA, but this variant would only go aboard the Escort Carriers.

Victorious was to receive Corsairs. Her Martlet IVs were probably rather worn after some months in the Southern Pacific. To me it does not seem odd that a number went to 738 Sqn and remained in America.

[EwenS]

There appears to be a whole batch of Mk.IV that went to 738 from Victorious squadrons. These include 

FN311 ex 882

FN312 ex 896

FN315 ex 882

FN316 ex 882

FN318 ex 882

 

With regard to the Indian Ocean, the escort carrier Shah made its maiden voyage as a ferry trip from the US West Coast to Ceylon via Melbourne in Australia in Jan 1944. Included in the cargo were 32 Wildcat. Around the same time Wilcat V JV430, JV432, JV433, JV439 were being tested at Coimbatore. This coincides with 890 going East. So it sounds as though there was a Martlet / Wildcat shortage in the IO needing new deliveries, suggesting any Mk.IV shipped out in 1942 had been lost or reallocated elsewhere.

[EwenS]

20 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I've no argument with your main points: however still feel that in the absence of any other carrier, Victorious would have gone to the Eastern Fleet but for the more urgent call for Operation Robin.  I would however have thought that Martlets/Wildcat continued in the Indian Ocean after mid-1943.  For the moment I'm away from my books to confirm that.

 

 

 

While it is always possible that Victorious would have been sent to the IO, I think it unlikely because firstly, it takes no account of the Home Fleet Carrier situation, and secondly it does not fit with British strategy for the theatre at that time, which was wholly defensive.

 

The RN tried to maintain at least one fleet carrier, preferably a modern one, in the Home Fleet throughout the war. Between Victorious sailing for the USA on 20th Dec and the end of Feb 1943 when Furious returned from the Med, there was no fleet carrier with the Home Fleet. Instead it had to make do with the escort carrier Dasher with its handful of Swordfish and Sea Hurricanes. Later in the year USS Ranger had to be borrowed to fill a gap so that the RN could keep 2 fleet carriers in the Med after Indomitable was torpedoed.

 

So it seems to me that Vic would have been retained with the Home Fleet. That would have allowed a third carrier to cover the Med where the need was much greater than the IO.

 

Even before the outbreak of war with Japan, the critical nature of the IO to not just Far East but Middle East strategy was realised. Convoys in the western part supplied troops and materials to India, Egypt and the Persian Gulf and as time went on lend lease supplies to USSR via the Persian Gulf. In addition the refinery at Abadan supplied most of the fuel for the ME and India. So the strategy after the Japanese incursion in April 1942 was one of a “fleet in being” to dissuade further incursions. Operation Ironclad to invade Madagascar was about denying a potential base to the Japanese in the western IO. The complete occupation of that island lasted until early Nov. By then the US had the Japanese fleet tied down in the Solomons.

 

The last major troop convoys across the IO occur in Jan/Feb 1943 with the transfer of the 9th Australian Div from Egypt to Oz.

 

So, historically, from an Eastern Fleet with 5 battleships (4 R class and Warspite) and 3 modern carriers in late April 1942 we see it steadily reduced as the IO threat reduces in the latter part of 1942 and the need for ships in the Med increases. By April 1943 the Eastern Fleet role is convoy protection in the western IO with largely old cruisers and AMCs. The operational core is reduced to 2 R class Battleships by April 1943. They don’t need a modern carrier escort because no one is going to send them in harms way.

 

And no carrier east of Suez means no need for Martlets to be held in store at bases around Mombasa/Kilindini so freeing them for transfer elsewhere. The last IO user in this period seems to have been 795 squadron based at Mackinnon Road in Kenya as the Eastern Fleet Fighter Pool with Martlet II/III/IV alongside Fulmars, Harvards and Sea Hurricanes for various periods until disbanded on 11 August 1943.

 

Things don’t begin to change until the Med reopens to through convoys from May 1943 (although the last Cape WS convoy didn’t sail from Britain until Aug) and the Italian fleet surrenders in Sept. Then the RN begins to reinforce and modernise the Eastern Fleet.

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Very logical, and it is easy to see why a carrier in the Home Fleet was considered the greater need.  However, if there was no carrier foreseen in the Indian Ocean then there was no need for an RN Fighter Pool. in Kenya, at least not one so large.  So if not Victorious, then why?  It is fair to say that a fair number of escort carriers operated the Martlet Mk.IV , but with only six a carrier, and other calls for their attention, this does not seem to require 32 spare aircraft in a quiet corner.

[EwenS]

i think the timeline is becoming muddled.

 

I’m seeing a run down of the need for Martlet IV from late 1942 as the fleet carriers are withdrawn from the IO with the disbandment of 795 being the final stage of that on 11 Aug 1943, something which no doubt had been planned some months earlier. 

 

You note that 795 was “large”. I’ve not seen a figure for the number of aircraft of each type it held at any point in time. Do you have figures?

 

There is then a new phase following the surrender of Italy in Sept and a move East by the RN. At that point the Martlet / Wildcat is being phased out altogether on fleet carriers in exchange for Corsairs and there are only a limited number of Hellcats available to the RN and the Seafire is not in favour on escort carriers after Salerno but has to be put up with for some months yet. So there was obviously going to be some need for Wildcat V to equip escort carrier squadrons that would have been expected to arrive to join Battler in the IO.

 

Then in Feb 1944 there was a major panic in the IO. The Japanese fleet moved to Singapore. No one knew why. Were they planning a raid? Turns out in the end that, other than a sortie by 3 cruisers in March, it was to be nearer their fuel supplies. But it triggers a lot of activity to move stuff from Britain to the IO just in case. Hellcat and Barracuda squadrons eventually destined for Indomitable are ferried out to add to the defences in Ceylon. But also 832 and 845 Avenger squadrons plus 851 direct from the US west coast on Shah. These all acquired Wildcat V fighter flights on arrival and ended up on escort carriers on IO patrols to chase down U-boats and their supply ships later in 1944. U-boat activity increased in the IO as the year went on. Also 890 squadron arrives minus its aircraft. Add in 834 on Battler, present since Oct 1943, swapping Seafires for Wildcat V from April.

 

Incidentally that Japanese move triggered ship movements as well, like that of the cruiser London and French battleship Richelieu. It also resulted in squadrons being moved about in northern Australia and 200 squadron on Liberators from West Africa to India. The escort carriers Atheling, Begum and Shah were all retained in the IO after their ferry trips to be joined by Ameer in June.

 

So before you know it you have a need that adds up to a requirement for 36 (6x4 for fighter flights plus 12 for 890). Add to that the needs of second line squadrons (733 FRU, 757 Fighter Pool), wastage etc and you can begin to see why Shah was tasked with ferrying 32 Wildcats from the US west coast to add to whatever number had already been moved to India / Ceylon.

[ClaudioN]

On 3/6/2022 at 12:27 PM, KRK4m said:

Thanks Claudio for this link. Admittedly, I have had this photo in this resolution in my archive for years, but I have not written down where I got it from. But on that basis I insisted on the R-1820 Cyclone engines in these darker Martlets. And now, thanks to you, everyone can see it.

By the way, it is worth noting that at least 4 out of 7 machines standing in the very bow of the ship have squadron numbers and code letters repeated on the upper surface of the wings - folded wings obscured the markings on the fuselage and only this way the pilot could quickly find his plane. The point is that these markings on the wings can be seen both on "1942 Gray" airplanes with the R-1830 TwinWasp engine (Martlet II ???) and on dark Martlet IVs with the R-1820 Cyclone engine. There are also two ways of placing these markings - closer to or further from the leading edge, although the version of the aircraft (and its camouflage) do not clearly determine this: the "1942 Gray" plane in the second row has these markings above the double break in the wing folding line (as in the darker "1943 Blue" Martlet IVs), and the "1942 Gray" plane in the first row has them below this step, which is slightly wider when viewed from above in flight.

Cheers

Michael

Indeed, now that I can see the whole picture I understand what you mean.

Avengers are unquestionably TBF-1s supplied by the U.S. Navy (25 aircraft are recorded by Sturtivant), that can be assumed to be finished in Sea Grey/Light Grey. Then, it is reasonable to assume that "lighter" F4Fs are in the same colour scheme.

The upper cowling air intake on the F4F is rather narrow and now I suspect it is not so easy to determine from this photo whether the intake is there or not.

 

Perhaps we may have another clue to tell F4Fs from Martlets. Propeller hubs on the F4F, as well as on the TBF, were usually left in natural metal, whereas the Hamilton Standard propeller on the Martlet Mk. IV usually had a black cap, as seen on the photo of FN254:7F posted by Ian.

In the photo of Victorious there seem to be:

• six aircraft with natural metal propeller hub. Five of them are in "light" colours and three of these show USN-style numbers on the wing top, suggesting they are USN
• six aircraft with black (dark) spinners. All of them are in "dark" colours; intriguingly, one shows USN-style numbers on the wing top (maybe a replacement wing?)

I think light-vs-dark propeller hubs is a reasonably reliable criterion to choose between F4F and Martlet. Now I feel I can agree with your interpretation, "dark" --> FAA, "light" --> USN.

 

I spent some time over Martlet serials in Sturtivant. Surprisingly, Martlets involved with 882, 896, 898 Sqns and USS Robin were much more than I expected, just over 60. Another interesting point is that seemingly less than half of that total were delivered directly in the USA. It would appear that, in addition to the 12 on strength with 882 Sqn, Victorious also ferried a significant number of Martlets back to the USA, although this would need to be confirmed.

Between January 1943 and the return of Victorious to the UK slight less than 20 Martlet IVs were lost. Of those remaining, 31 are recorded going to 738 Sqn, thus remaining in America.

 

HTH

Claudio

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by ClaudioN

[ClaudioN]

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234987417-natural-metal-martlet-in-maine/#comment-2080692

 

I was wondering... if so many Martlets went to 738 Sqn, maybe something interesting might come to light. The photo in the openening post linked above, "Natural Metal Martlet in Maine" shows three Martlets, among other aircraft of 738 Sqn. One of the three carries, in addition to a roughly applied '2Bx' code on the fuselage spine, a former number-letter code across the fuselage roundel. This might perhaps be either 6-H or 8-H.

Could it be one of the USS Robin survivors?

 

I know I am biased now, but I believe I might be seeing a small light-coloured patch on the fin... the White Ensign?

 

Opinions welcome.

 

[ClaudioN]

On 3/6/2022 at 6:39 PM, Graham Boak said:

Squadrons of the FAA suggests the 7 code was used by both 882 and 898, but as 882 would have been the senior unit then they would have been expected to carry the code 6.

As I understand it, the code was seemingly changed after Operation Torch.

During Torch, Victorious had aboard 809 Sqn Fulmars (6x), 882 Martlets Sqn (7x) and 884 Sqn Seafires (8x).

In 1943 882 Sqn was definitely the senior unit and took up code '6x', with '7x' going to 898 Sqn and '8x' to 896 according to Air Britain, although 896 was formed one month earlier. How was seniority determined in this case?

On 3/6/2022 at 7:10 PM, iang said:

of course, there may have been more than one NZ pilot)

Navy List records a few RNZNVR pilots among Victorious units. 898 had the greatest number, three.