Martlet IVs on "USS Robin"

[Modelraynz]

Hiya

 

Ive been looking into martlet IVs in USN markings aboard "USS Robin":

 

It seems to be a 3 tone tone scheme similar to:

 

Initially i thought these were usn, but i can see asifferent cowl shape and prop:

 

Has anyone come across clearer photos of these machines?

 

Cheers!

Edited December 25, 2021 by Modelraynz

[112 Squadron]

USS Robin was the code name for HMS Victorious when it operated with the USN in the pacific in 1943.

 

Here is a link to an article about this unusual deployment of a Royal Navy Carrier with the US Navy with some more pictures of the Martlets:

 

https://www.armouredcarriers.com/uss-robin-hms-victorious

Edited December 26, 2021 by 112 Squadron

[Modelraynz]

Cheers mate, its a good account eh!

 

id made a non technical note for self refernece on one of the photos that might be of interest:

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Modelraynz

[tonyot]

From my own research, I have come across British Martlet`s and US Wildcats baed aboard `Robin',....... all wearing US stars. When Saratoga and `Robin' were operating together, the US carrier took onboard most of the strike assets,..... including RN Avengers/Tarpons,...... and the British carrier took on most of the fighters due to its advanced radar and Fighter Control Officers,..... so both vessels operated a mixture of British and US aircraft,....... this might help explain the mixture of camo`s on deck,...... although the British squadrons probably did operate aircraft in both US and British schemes.

Most of the British Martlet`s wore a small White ensign on the fin, if that helps,..... see below?

 

 

Cheers

          Tony

Edited December 26, 2021 by tonyot

[85sqn]

I have an article about this somewhere. I believe the aircraft still have 'Royal Navy' on them as well.

[85sqn]

If you can, look up a copy of 'The Hook' Journal of Carrier aviation Summer 2009 for more info.

[Modelraynz]

Wow fantastic photos Tonyot!  😲 I had wondered about the size of the fuselauge roundel, given the wing ones are of a larger size!  the little ensign is cute! woudl need to do some custom decaling 😎

 

Thanks for the heads up 85sqn!   ill try and find the article

 

in all turning into quite a tasty subject 😍

[KRK4m]

As all the fighters in your large photo have this white pennant on the fin, it should be considered that both the ones you call Wildcats (in the two-colour USN Blue Gray over Light Gray camouflage) and the Martlets in the four-colour (albeit commonly called three-colour) USN camouflage (Dark Sea Blue and Intermediate Blue over White) are FAA machines. The question remains whether these planes (both variants) were boarded on HMS Victorious during her stay in the USA in the winter of 1942/43. They would then be probably the only F4Fs to wear (admittedly for a short time and outside the war zone) British roundels in combination with the standard camouflage of US Navy airplanes.

Cheers

Michael

[ClaudioN]

For a time all the fighters, including the U.S. Navy ones, were operated by Victorious/Robin while all Avengers, including 832 Sqn. FAA, were on Saratoga. This could explain the mix of finishes.

IIRC, 882 Sqn.  received Martlet Mk. IVs in Britain, whereas 896 and 898 Sqns formed in the US, initially operating ex-U.S. Navy F4F-3s.

 

[KRK4m]

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

For a time all the fighters, including the U.S. Navy ones, were operated by Victorious/Robin while all Avengers, including 832 Sqn. FAA, were on Saratoga. This could explain the mix of finishes.  IIRC, 882 Sqn.  received Martlet Mk. IVs in Britain, whereas 896 and 898 Sqns formed in the US, initially operating ex-U.S. Navy F4F-3s.

 

That's right - once the installation of additional US-type arresting wires and the modification of tail hooks on the British TBF enabled them to safely operate from HMS Victorious, the problem turned out to be the lifts on which the Avenger was within 10 cm from the edge. And then it was decided that the USS Robin would be a specialized air defense aircraft carrier.

But still, no Martlet on board has FAA (basically TSS) camouflage, and all planes have a white RN pennant on the fin. So the mix of two camouflage patterns is created not by the F4Fs from USS Saratoga and the British Martlets, but by the F4F-3s from the 896 and 898 Squadrons and the Martlet Mk.IVs brought from the UK - here clearly visible in the four-color "1943" pattern, which was never introduced to the F4F-4 production in the Grumman plant. In USN units, the first multi-coloured Wildcats were the Eastern-built FM-1s that appeared in this new camo only in March 1943, IIRC.

Is it possible that the Martlets for 882 Squadron were delivered to the UK in the fall of 1942 in the new scheme, which was to apply in the USN only from February 1943?

Cheers

Michael

[KRK4m]

Or perhaps it is more probable that the 9-cylinder Martlets of the 882 Squadron (immortalized in photos from the Operation Torch in the standard British TSS camouflage) were repainted to the new four-colour US Navy standard only in the spring of 1943 during a stopover by HMS Victorious at a port in USA or Hawaii. This may have happened when the Avenger's arrester hooks were modified and all planes were painted with white stars.

Cheers

Michael

[Gazontipede]

On 3/3/2022 at 9:40 AM, KRK4m said:

So the mix of two camouflage patterns is created not by the F4Fs from USS Saratoga and the British Martlets, but by the F4F-3s from the 896 and 898 Squadrons and the Martlet Mk.IVs brought from the UK - here clearly visible in the four-color "1943" pattern, which was never introduced to the F4F-4 production in the Grumman plant.

Cheers

Michael

This is excellent stuff, but there is one point that I'm obviously not understanding. AFAIK the F4F-3 never had folding wings, yet in the photos in this thread the aircraft identified as F4s (which also appear to bear the white ensign pennant on the tails) all have their wings neatly folded as do those identified as Martlets. What have I missed?

[KRK4m]

Excellent point - somehow everyone missed it! 👍

So it's fair to say that this is the F4F-4, and all the older "sources" were... moderately reliable.😉

Cheers

Michael

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Victorious left Britain in December 1942 and then had the opportunity to pick up F4F from the US until July 1943, this is the selection available,

 

Grumman produced 100 Martlet II/F4F-3 for the RN March 1941 to April 1942, the final 90 of the order for 100 had folding wings.  
Grumman ceased F4F-3 production for the USN in September 1941, (including a batch of 65 F4F-3A March to May 1941) the first F4F-4 was produced in November 1941, production of which continued until December 1942, then Grumman switched back to the F4F-3, with 100 built January to May 1943. 

The Martlet IV/Wildcat IV/F4F-4B order for the RN had 1 built in February 1942 the the remaining 219 May to November 1942.

General Motors produced its first FM-1 in September 1942, all up 23 by the end of the year, 2 of the November 1942 acceptances were for the RN.

 

According to the UK imports report, Martlet IV imports to Britain were 10 in August 1942, 40 in September, 60 in October, 14 in November, 3 in December and 7 in February 1943, total 134, With the first Wildcat V arriving in May 1943. (Another 30 Martlet IV arrived in Mombassa in November 1942, the first Avenger arrived in Britain in April 1943.)

 

On a related topic

Admiralty Fleet Order 3186/1943
Martlet I and IV Aircraft Types of Engines Fitted. A.M.R. 2498/43. - 15 July 1943.

 

Some confusion may at present exist concerning the types of Cyclone engines which can be fitted in Martlet I and IV, due to the large variety of type numbers which may be found stamped on the engine date plates.

 

2 (a) Engines suitable for the Martlet I : Cyclone G.205A, Cyclone G.205A-2
2 (b) Engines suitable for the Martlet IV : Cyclone G.205A-3, Cyclone G.251A, Cyclone R.1820-40B

 

3 Apart from minor differences between the engines listed in 2(a) and 2 (b) above, such as ignition harness elbows, tachometer drives etc., the main difference is that 2(a) are fitted with 3 jaw starter shaft dog suitable for an electric-inertia starter, while 2(b) are fitted with a 12 jaw starter shaft dog suitable for a cartridge starter.

 

4. Engines shown within groups 2(a) and 2(b) respectively are interchangeable with other engines shown in the same group.

 

5. All engines shown in group 2(b) are fitted with an external oil scavenge line running from the oil pump at the rear of the engine to the sump at the front of the engine.  Engines in group 2(a) were not originally fitted with this external scavenge line, but are being fitted on overhaul by the incorporation of Mod. Cyclone/45 so that this line alone may NOT be taken as a criterion by which to identify Martlet IV engines.

[ClaudioN]

5 hours ago, KRK4m said:

Excellent point - somehow everyone missed it! 👍

So it's fair to say that this is the F4F-4, and all the older "sources" were... moderately reliable.😉

Cheers

Michael

Sorry for not being clear enough. 896 and 898 "initially operating ex-U.S. Navy F4F-3s" really meant initially, that is, in the shore-based training phase. When Victorious arrived, 896 and 898 were issued Martlet Mk. IVs (that is F4F-4Bs, if you like the US designation). In the carrier picture above all aircraft have folding wings, hence either Martlet Ivs or F4F-4s.

 

Some aircraft in that photo appear to have codes on the engine cowling rim and I take them to be Martlet IVs, as codes in that position were common on FAA Martlets.

Others have no code, and might possibly have an air intake on top of the cowling, that the Martlet IV did not have. I seem to recall that towards the end of Victorious stay in the Pacific the FAA had to borrow some F4F-4s from the U.S. Navy as there were no more Martlet IVs.

 

Interestingly, the small white dot on the fin associated with the White Ensign appears to be carried by all aircraft indistinctly. Perhaps an early instance of 'zapping' by the British, maybe?

[KRK4m]

On 3/4/2022 at 8:48 AM, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Victorious left Britain in December 1942 and then had the opportunity to pick up F4F from the US until July 1943, this is the selection available,

 

Grumman produced 100 Martlet II/F4F-3 for the RN March 1941 to April 1942, the final 90 of the order for 100 had folding wings.  
Grumman ceased F4F-3 production for the USN in September 1941, (including a batch of 65 F4F-3A March to May 1941) the first F4F-4 was produced in November 1941, production of which continued until December 1942, then Grumman switched back to the F4F-3, with 100 built January to May 1943. 

The Martlet IV/Wildcat IV/F4F-4B order for the RN had 1 built in February 1942 the the remaining 219 May to November 1942.

General Motors produced its first FM-1 in September 1942, all up 23 by the end of the year, 2 of the November 1942 acceptances were for the RN.

 

According to the UK imports report, Martlet IV imports to Britain were 10 in August 1942, 40 in September, 60 in October, 14 in November, 3 in December and 7 in February 1943, total 134, With the first Wildcat V arriving in May 1943. (Another 30 Martlet IV arrived in Mombassa in November 1942, the first Avenger arrived in Britain in April 1943.)

 

I leave the matter of Cyclone engines aside - everything is clear here. On the other hand, the matter of the airframes becomes even more confusing. Admittedly, @Modelraynz  did not specify the date of the photo, but it was definitely between January and July 1943. The problem is that all Martlets/Wildcats on "USS Robin" board wear not only white stars, but also standard US Navy camouflage(s). They all also have small white single letters (or numbers?) on the cowling edge and a tiny white pennant on the fin. So far, I have assumed that the TwinWasp-engined "bright" planes (1942 Blue Gray over Light Gray camouflage) are ex-American F4F-3s, taken over by the FAA while the ship was in one of the US ports. That is why they kept their camouflage and stars, and the transition to British hands was signalled only by those pennants on their tails. @Gazontipede pointed out folding wings - OK, then the FAA took over not the F4F-3s, but the F4F-4s.

FM-1 (Wildcat V) never flew in this camouflage and with barless stars, so we discard them. But there is a spark of uncertainty all the time - or maybe they are not Yankee Wildcats, but built for RN Martlet IIs? The more that the "dark" machines with Cyclone engines are undoubtedly the Martlet IVs, built ONLY for the RN. But they also undoubtedly have not only white stars, but also the four-colour US Navy camouflage (Dark Sea Blue + Intermediate Blue over White). And yet a few weeks earlier during Operation Torch (despite the presence of white stars) the RN did not use such a far-reaching hoax and retained the British Temperate Sea Scheme on their Martlet IVs.

 

On 3/4/2022 at 12:21 PM, ClaudioN said:

Sorry for not being clear enough. 896 and 898 "initially operating ex-U.S. Navy F4F-3s" really meant initially, that is, in the shore-based training phase. When Victorious arrived, 896 and 898 were issued Martlet Mk. IVs (that is F4F-4Bs, if you like the US designation). In the carrier picture above all aircraft have folding wings, hence either Martlet IVs or F4F-4s.

Some aircraft in that photo appear to have codes on the engine cowling rim and I take them to be Martlet IVs, as codes in that position were common on FAA Martlets.

Others have no code, and might possibly have an air intake on top of the cowling, that the Martlet IV did not have. I seem to recall that towards the end of Victorious stay in the Pacific the FAA had to borrow some F4F-4s from the U.S. Navy as there were no more Martlet IVs.

Interestingly, the small white dot on the fin associated with the White Ensign appears to be carried by all aircraft indistinctly. Perhaps an early instance of 'zapping' by the British, maybe?

 

I have never heard about this replenishment of the squadrons by the second-hand F4F-4s from the US Navy. But such a circumstance in some way explains the presence of these "brightly camouflaged" TwinWasp-engined Wildcats (i.e. F4F-4) on this deck. But at the same time it would limit the period of taking the photo to June-July 1943. And then the US Navy already used insignia with bars in red outline ...

Cheers

Michael

Edited March 5, 2022 by KRK4m

[EwenS]

Reading through the above posts it seems to me that things are becoming unnecessarily confused. Much information is out there, particularly on the Armoured Carriers website and in many books that cover Victorious's time with the Pacific Fleet in 1943. I think a clear timeline of events might help. But first some points that need cleared up.

 

Lift size v folded dimensions of an Avenger (@KRK4m post #10)

The clearance between the lift edge and the Avenger was NOT 10cm (4")

 

The lifts on Victorious were 45x22ft. An Avenger folded was 40x19ft. So there is a clearance of 1.5-2.5ft around an Avenger on Victorious's lifts. When designed these ships had hangars where the space around the around the aircraft was down to similar levels. So RN deck crews were used to working with such tight dimensions. When it came to the Avenger I've never read of any difficulties in handling the aircraft, either during 1943 or subsequently in 1944/45.

 

British v US Avengers and arrester gear.

The records seem to be clear. When 832 squadron arrived in the US it was equipped with standard USN TBF-1 Avengers. It did not receive British spec Avenger I until Victorious was on her way home in from Norfolk Virginia in Sept 1943.

 

It seems that one of the difficulties she encountered with the US Avengers was that the claw on the arrester hook was not wide enough to accept the usual thickness of arrester wire with which she was fitted. The other problem was that the arrester gear had not been designed for such a heavy aircraft as the Avenger. These problems were all resolved during her stay at Pearl Harbor when 2 additional wires were fitted abaft her existing wires.

 

Victorious as a fighter carrier

The principal reason for operating Victorious as a fighter carrier while in the South Pacific was because her Air Direction facilities were state of the art for the time and her personnel well practiced after operations in the Med from Aug-Nov 1942, and were demonstrated to be superior to those of the Saratoga at this time. She had been fitted with a prototype Air Direction Room before Operation Torch, something that the USN carrier did not have at this time. The decision was taken after the two carriers had exercised together for the first time.

 

Timeline

Sept/Oct 1942 896 and 898 squadrons form up at Norfolk Virginia, with an initial complement of 6 Martlet IV, later increased to 12.

 

Oct - Dec 1942 Negotiations between US and Britain about fulfilling a US request for British carrier(s) to be sent to the Pacific to reinforce the USN as they were down to a sole carrier, Saratoga.

20/12/42 Victorious sails for Norfolk carrying 12 Martlet IV of 882 squadron and Albacores of 832. She arrived 1 Jan 1943.

6/2/43 After a short refit and work up, she sailed for the Panama Canal with 36 Martlet IV of 882, 896 and 898 squadrons and 16 Avengers of 832 squadron. The latter wore their USN markings.

11/2/43 arrives Colon after losing 2 Martlets.

18/2/43 left Panama for Pearl Harbor.

4/3/43 Arrived Pearl Harbor having lost an Avenger and a Martlet in deck accidents. While at PH her Martlets exchanged British roundels for US stars. The TBF had been received with US markings while at Norfolk and retained the throughout.

8/5/43 Left PH for South Pacific with 36 Martlet IV and 16 TBF-1 Avengers aboard. Lost 1 Martlet en route to Noumea.

17/5/43 Arrived Noumea

18/5/43 left Noumea for exercises with Saratoga and other USN ships. 1 Martlet lost. problems experienced with some Martlets getting a bit "teased out"

25/5/43 arrived back at Noumea

1/6/43 sailed for more exercises with the Saratoga.

3/6/43 back at Noumea

4/6/43 Lost another Martlet.

16/6/43 sailed for intensive exercises. Cross decking of air groups. 6xTBF-1 and 12xMartlet from Victorious to Saratoga. 8xTBF, 6xSBD and 12xF4F received in exchange. 1 Martlet lost in deck accident.

20/6/43 back at Noumea

22/6/43 Lost another Martlet.

27/6/43 Sailed to cover US landing operations on New Georgia. 832 squadron TBF sent to Saratoga in exchange for 24 "Wildcats" from Saratoga.

1/7/43 Lost a TBF

8/7/43 Lost a Martlet in a barrier crash

13/7/43 Lost a Martlet in a ditching.

16/7/43 lost another Martlet in a deck accident

24/7/43 832 returns to Victorious and US fighters to Saratoga.

25/7/43 arrives Noumea

31/7/43 Left Noumea for PH

4/8/43 lost a Martlet

9/8/43 arrived PH

12/8/43 Left PH

18/8/43 arrived San Diego

26/8/43 arrived Panama

 

Note, on arrival back at Norfolk all the squadrons replaced their remaining Martlet IV with Martlet V being taking passage to the UK. Note the Wildcat V is the FM-1 not the FM-2 version. IIRC correctly the changeover to the all blue scheme came part way through the Wildcat VI delivery run.

 

From Armoured Carrier site when she left PH for the South Pacific on 8 May 1943

 

"The carrier deployed with 52 aircraft aboard: It had been intended for Victorious to carry 42 Martlets, but only 47 were available on the US West Coast. Victorious deployed with 36 to reduce overcrowding and provide a small stock of aircraft at Pearl for training.

882 Squadron with 12 Martlet IV (all F4F-4B standard)

896 Squadron, 12 Martlet IV

898 Squadron, 12 Martlet IV

832 Squadron, 16 Avengers"

 

Then on 24/5/43 (or 25th) on arrival at Noumea:-

"Here, six USN F4F-4 Wildcats were handed over to replace those lost in deck landing accidents since Victorious had departed Pearl.

The reserve FAA Martlets had suffered something of a disaster: A supply of these Wildcats modified to RN specifications had been wrecked by a hurricane while being ferried to Pearl Harbour."

 

I've noted two definitely lost but probably some others were in need of replacement due to being "teased out".

 

Note that the first photo on the USS Robin page with Vic alongside the tanker USS Cimarron is dated 12 July 1943. If true that would suggest that all the similar photos were taken at the same time i.e. before any of the Martlets/F4F-4 were reported to be aboard her. Other than the change of markings to the Martlet IV at PH I cannot recall seeing anything to suggest that they were repainted while in the Pacific.

 

https://www.armouredcarriers.com/uss-robin-hms-victorious

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by EwenS

[ClaudioN]

3 hours ago, KRK4m said:

So far, I have assumed that the TwinWasp-engined "light" planes (1942 Blue Gray over Light Gray camouflage) are ex-American F4F-3s, taken over by the FAA while the ship was in one of the US ports. That is why they kept their camouflage and stars, and the transition to British hands was signalled only by those pennants on their tails.

3 hours ago, KRK4m said:

I have never heard about this replenishment of the squadrons by the second-hand F4F-4s from the US Navy. But such a circumstance in some way explains the presence of these "lightly camouflaged" TwinWasp-engined Wildcats (i.e. F4F-4) on this deck. But at the same time it would limit the period of taking the photo to June-July 1943. And then the US Navy already used insignia with bars in red outline ...

I had a look at "US Navy Carrier Aircraft Colours", by Geoff Thomas. The three-colour Sea Blue/Intermediate Blue/White camouflage scheme was introduced by the US Navy in February 1943. Bars were added to the star markings at the end of June 1943. This means US Navy F4F-4s were finished in darker colours and still with the blue/white "star roundel" in the exact period when Victorious operated in the Pacific.

Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey do not usually create much contrast in black and white photos and I believe they should appear lighter than Sea Blue/Intermediate Blue/White (particularly after some time under the Pacific sun).

 

My interpretation of the photo is that lighter aircraft are Martlet IVs in standard FAA camouflage. The darker ones are US Navy aircraft with the then new three-colour camouflage, but still with "star roundel" insignia, as in use in that period. White codes on the cowling are carried by the lighter machines, that is, the original FAA Martlets.

[Graham Boak]

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

 

Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey do not usually create much contrast in black and white photos and I believe they should appear lighter than Sea Blue/Intermediate Blue/White (particularly after some time under the Pacific sun).

 

My interpretation of the photo is that lighter aircraft are Martlet IVs in standard FAA camouflage. The darker ones are US Navy aircraft with the then new three-colour camouflage, but still with "star roundel" insignia, as in use in that period. White codes on the cowling are carried by the lighter machines, that is, the original FAA Martlets.

TSS is a colour scheme that can give almost any contrast depending upon the films and filters used.  It is true that sometimes it appears fairly light with little or no contrast.  I'm inclined to believe that you are however right, this seems more convincing than any tortured suggestion of different batches of USN aircraft, particularly when we know that FAA aircraft were involved.

[ClaudioN]

10 hours ago, EwenS said:

"The carrier deployed with 52 aircraft aboard: It had been intended for Victorious to carry 42 Martlets, but only 47 were available on the US West Coast. Victorious deployed with 36 to reduce overcrowding and provide a small stock of aircraft at Pearl for training.

10 hours ago, EwenS said:

Then on 24/5/43 (or 25th) on arrival at Noumea:-

"Here, six USN F4F-4 Wildcats were handed over to replace those lost in deck landing accidents since Victorious had departed Pearl.

The reserve FAA Martlets had suffered something of a disaster: A supply of these Wildcats modified to RN specifications had been wrecked by a hurricane while being ferried to Pearl Harbour."

 

Some interesting details that I'd like to discuss here.

Based on information in Sturtivant "Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939 to 1945", I can find no trace of 47 Martlets available on the West Coast. The number of 42 Martlets suggests an initial establishment of 14 aircraft per squadron may have been planned, possibly 36 plus 6 in reserve. However Victorious sailed from Norfolk, on the East Coast and proceeded directly to Pearl Harbour via Panama. From what I can see in Sturtivant, 896 and 898 Squadrons received 24 aircraft which, added to the 12 of 882 Squadron coming from the UK, makes exactly 36. There were seemingly no more Martlet IVs in the USA.

 

All other Martlet IVs were reportedly shipped or ferried to the UK or the Eastern Fleet, also leaving from the East Coast. Keeping a reserve sounds reasonable, but the wrecking by a hurricane of as many as 11 Martlets on ferry to Pearl Harbour is unlikely to have gone unrecorded. Martlet IVs all have some individual history in Sturtivant and no one is recorded as lost or wrecked in a storm in the Pacific.

I would consider the possibility that reserves to be held at Pearl Harbour were indeed U.S. Navy Wildcats, possibly folding-wing F4F-4s. Even the U.S. Navy had no large reserves of Wildcats. Perhaps "only 47 on the West Coast" might refer to the possibility of drawing some aircraft for the FAA from their own reserves?

 

As to losses, 12 Martlets "lost" between February and August 1943 are listed in your post. I have not been able to check, but perhaps not all accidents were total losses and some aircraft could be repaired. Even in the worst case, with 24 Martlet IVs left, plus 6 ex-USN F4F-4s, plus all the fighters from Saratoga, Victorious still had a respectable fighter force aboard.

[KRK4m]

Gentlemen - the answers are getting longer (although still interesting), but I do not have time to write a book about this tiny episode in the history of the Royal Navy, the HMS Victorious, the Grumman F4F or the Pacific War.

 

But one by one - @Geoffrey Sinclair 

When HMS Victorious arrived in Norfolk on 1/1/43, Grumman had already manufactured hundreds of the G-36A (Martlet I with Cyclone engine and fixed wings), the F4F-3 (and F4F-3A, both called Martlet III) with the Twin Wasp engine and fixed wings , the F4F-4 (Martlet II) with the Twin Wasp engine and folding wings, and the F4F-4B (Martlet IV) with the Cyclone engine and folding wings. By the end of 1942, GM had only built a few dozen FM-1s with a Twin Wasp engine and folding wings, but RN only acquired 2 during this period as Wildcat V. Britain admits to receiving 127 Martlet IVs in 1942 and 7 in 1943. You write about 30 more delivered to Mombasa on November 42 - as 30 is more than 14, I understand that deliveries to East Africa are not included in the total of 134 machines you gave earlier. There are still 56 Martlet IVs left. The question is, are there among them any machines that were embarked on HMS Victorious in Norfolk in January 1943? After all, in this total of 134 (import report) there are only 3 in December and 7 in February - and zero in January.

 

@EwenS

1. Lifts on aircraft carriers:

You're right - the 18 inch margin on the HMS Victorious elevator is more than the 4 inches I took from some secondary booklet. But the front elevator on the CV-3 Saratoga was 60x30 feet - well over the Victorious 45’x22’, you will admit. And the Avenger with its wings folded left a margin of 66 inches transversely and 120" longitudally. Much more than on a British ship. In combat conditions, such a margin significantly facilitates the work of the on-board crew and significantly reduces the time of the operation. I'm an old man, but not old enough to serve on an aircraft carrier during the Avengers' lifetime. I was informed about this problem from the Armoured Aircraft Carriers site you have cited many times:

The lifts were a tight squeeze for the larger Avenger, and time had to be taken to make sure the plane was in the lift just right to enable it to be raised or lowered; this time was precious in the big carrier battles of the Pacific. [Commander Samuel Mitchell, USN Liaision Officer] 

2. The Avenger arrester hook (from the Armoured Aircraft Carriers again):

The RN arrestor cables were supposed to help correct an aircraft's off-centre landing by 'pulling' it back towards the centre line. The Avenger was too heavy for this to be effective.

…the Pearl Harbour engineers added two US-style arresting wires behind the original Number 1 wire.  This increased both the number of wires available to be caught and the distance before reaching the first crash barriers. Ashore, the FAA Avengers had their hooks enlarged to better catch RN cables.

3. Changes to USN Wildcat schemes:

There are 3 consecutive US Navy Wildcat paint periods. In the first one (until February 1943), the Blue Gray over Light Gray scheme was in force, and part of the F4F-3 and all F4F-4 were produced there. The second period (from February 43) has a version for the Pacific fleet and the Atlantic fleet. The first ones are Dark Sea Blue/Intermediate Blue/White, and in the Atlantic - Dark Gull Gray/Light Gull Gray/White. As for the factory paint job it is for the last 100 F4F-3 from Bethpage (Bu.No 12230/12329, mfrs no. 5890/5989), all FM-1 and some FM-2. The aforementioned transition to the completely blue scheme during the production of FM-2 (Wildcat VI) is only the year 1944, i.e. the third period - painting all surfaces in Sea Blue Gloss.

4. Timeline:

You are right that the photo with the USS Cimarron tanker is dated July 12, 1943. And in my opinion, the other photos of the Wildcats, Martlets and Avengers on board were also taken on the same day. But (contrary to what you wrote) between 27.06 and 24.07.43 (according to your timeline), 30 RN fighters (24 Martlet IVs and 6 second-hand F4F-4) and 24 F4F-4 of the US Navy from Saratoga should be stationed on board the "air defense aircraft carrier" USS Robin. And not a single Avenger. And in these photos the Avengers are clearly visible ... You also write that, apart from the change of markings on the Martlet IVs in Pearl, you do not remember that you have seen anything that suggests that they have been repainted in the Pacific. I don't remember either.

But as a historian and a museum curator for many years, I have not believed any documents for many years - they are worth as much as the paper on which they were written. A digression here: my great-grandparents and grandparents were citizens of Austria-Hungary - a country with the most extensive and probably the most perfect administration in Europe at the end of the 19th century. Nevertheless, in the documents of my great-grandmother I find 2 different dates of birth (I believe the one from the birth certificate, although the one from the baptism certificate is more often reproduced, repeated in the marriage and death certificate), and in the documents of my great-grandfather, different maiden names of his mother.

 

@ClaudioN

You're right, the US Navy's four-colour camouflage pattern was introduced 4 months before adding bars to the stars and surrounding them with red trim. There are many pictures of Hellcats with a new camouflage and old star pattern. And in combat conditions, the service staff usually has more important things to do than repaint airplanes (or at least insignia) to the newly introduced design. That is why the old stars can still be seen in the photos from December 1943, and the two-colour "gray" camouflage even in the spring of 1944.

And you are right that EDSG and DSG do not create much contrast in the photos and the upper surface of the wing in TSS is certainly brighter than Dark Sea Blue (the sun of the Pacific is not an argument here - all the colors fade in it). But your interpretation is exactly the opposite of the reality - you didn't take into account the difference in the engines. Because dark planes are Martlet IVs (but not in FAA camouflage - this is clearly indicated by the horizontal colour division line in the upper part of the cowling), and the light ones are F4F-4 (either the second-hand replacements of British squadrons or rebased from Saratoga) in the old scheme. There is not a single machine in the UK TSS scheme in the photo.

 

@Graham Boak

As for the colours in the TSS scheme, I fully support you. But I will continue to torture the suggestion of repainting the Martlets IVs in the US Navy's four-color blue pattern. It is a pity that there are no photos of these machines with their wings stretched flat anywhere. I wonder if the squadron codes looks the same as during Operation Torch.

 

Summary:

I wrote above that I don't believe the documents. Instead, I believe my eyeballs. The photos that sparked this discussion (thanks, @Modelraynz ) on the front deck of the USS Robin clearly show 5 TwinWasp-engined fighters in the old camouflage (low demarcation line, brighter wings and darker tail fin) and 7 Cyclone-engined fighters in the new camouflage (with high demarcation line, darker wings and lighter tail fin). They all have Yankee white stars and tiny white ensigns on their tails. Not all of them show the numbers (or letters) on the cowling, but they are on both the 9-cylinder and 14-cylinder machines.

And now let me remind you again the title of the thread: Martlet IVs on USS Robin. So let's forget about whether we are talking about the quantity of 42, 47, 52 or 36. The point is why RN Martlet IVs (the first Wildcats with a 9-cylinder Wright Cyclone engine in the US Navy service were the FM-2 with taller vertical tail, manufactured from October 1943, when HMS Victorious was already in Greenock on the Clyde) wear the then new - introduced in February 1943 -"blue" four-color US Navy camouflage, if the last of these F4F-4B (see @Geoffrey Sinclair above) came out of Bethpage in November 1942 ???

Where and when were they repainted? This is the crucial question.

Unless someone tries to prove that the fighters in the VF6 squadron aboard the USS Saratoga in the summer of 1943 were Cyclone-engined F4F-4B of those 56 machines that differed in the number of manufactured (220) and accepted by RN (164) 😉

Cheers

Michael

[ClaudioN]

1 hour ago, KRK4m said:

But your interpretation is exactly the opposite of the reality - you didn't take into account the difference in the engines.

Let's agree to disagree.

The Martlet IV had no air intake on the engine cowling upper lip, the F4F-4 had it. From what my eyes can see in the picture we are discussing, the aircraft in lighter colour do not have that intake. I may be wrong, of course.

 

I seem to recall that the Avenger wing fold design allowed lifts on American carriers to move two aircraft in one go. This was taken from a discussion on TBF vs SB2C wing fold.

[iang]

I own an original photograph album compiled by an unidentified pilot or FAA ground crew who served on Ark Royal, Victorious and Implacable, that contains  quite a few "Robin" Martlet photos of varying quality. I was planning to use them for a follow-on FAA Camouflage & Markings volume eventually, so am not keen on posting high resolution copies.  I need to scan most of them, but here's a nice photo of 6G:

 

 

I can't read the serial unfortunately, but it looks like a Martlet IV in USN camouflage to me.

 

 

[KRK4m]

4 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Let's agree to disagree.

The Martlet IV had no air intake on the engine cowling upper lip, the F4F-4 had it. From what my eyes can see in the picture we are discussing, the aircraft in lighter colour do not have that intake. I may be wrong, of course.

Perhaps you aren't - looks like we've discovered an unknown Wildcat variant, combining a TwinWasp engine with no upper cowling lip intake (as in the F4F-3) but with folding wings!

 

53 minutes ago, iang said:

I own an original photograph album compiled by an unidentified pilot or FAA ground crew who served on Ark Royal, Victorious and Implacable, that contains  quite a few "Robin" Martlet photos of varying quality. I was planning to use them for a follow-on FAA Camouflage & Markings volume eventually, so am not keen on posting high resolution copies.  I need to scan most of them, but here's a nice photo of 6G:

I can't read the serial unfortunately, but it looks like a Martlet IV in USN camouflage to me.

Bingo - to me too!

Because it is a Martlet IV in USN four-colour camo introduced in February 1943.

 

In 2011, there was an article by Joseph Tremain on the USS Robin on the Armchair General website. And in the discussion under the article on July 28, 2013, Lt. John W Herbert DSC, (California-based, then 92-year-old former Martlet pilot of 896 Squadron) wrote that he had over a hundred photos from that period that he intended to scan. Unfortunately, on January 2, 2018, John, then 95, crossed the bar and I don't know who has these photos today. Maybe this is one of them? Several sons of pilots or sailors from that period also appeared in the discussion, and they all agreed that all the planes on board were as similar to the US Navy machines as possible (white stars, no Fin Flash) - they differed only by the small Royal Navy inscription and the serial before the tail.

However, there was not a word of camouflage scheme, and now we have the picture 👍

Cheers

Michael

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/naval-aviation-history/involvement-by-conflict/world-war-ii/location-of-us-naval-aircraft-world-war-ii.html

 

May/June/July 1943 Saratoga air group mainly in Noumea.  USN carriers operating F4F-4 in Southern Pacific.  No mention of Victorious/Robin.

 

Apart from the F4F and FM-1 acceptances mentioned earlier, 1943 USN fighter types acceptances for the RN began as follows, 8 FM-1 in February, 77 by end June, 10 F6F-3 in March, 70 by end June, 20 F4U-1 in May, 45 by end June.  FM-2 acceptances for the USN began in September 1943, the last FM-1 accepted in December.  The first FM-2 accepted for the RN in January 1944.

 

Additions to

 

The US delivery report says no naval aircraft for the RN in May 1942 or January 1943, but 221 June to December 1942.  The RAF contract cards report Martlet IV deliveries from August 1942 and when you count the individual entries you end up with slightly different monthly totals than the summary totals reported before.  Using the individual entries for where the aircraft was first sent the totals include 130 to UK or Speke August to December 1942, 29 to Mombasa October 1942, along with 4 lost at sea and 19 to unknown destinations, while the imports report says 134 arrived UK August 1942 to February 1943 and 30 arrived Mombasa November 1942, total 164 leaving 56 to be accounted for, versus 19 unknowns in the individual entries.  Noting the imports report would exclude any lost en route, retained in the US or moved as equipment of a formed military unit, which would include those on Victorious.

 

RAF Contract Cards for serials FN100 to 319, the destinations are taken from scanned microfilm of hand written originals that are hard to read at times, if you think the entry is wrong there is a good chance you are correct.

29 for Mombasa FN156 to 167, FN172 to 188.

4 Lost at Sea FN205, FN206, FN207, FN240

8 for 590 (yes 590) squadron, FN122 to 125, FN130 to 133 (September 1942)

8 for 890 squadron, FN169, FN170, FN171, FN196, FN197, FN199, FN293, FN294 (6 in October, 2 in November 1942)

14 for 894 squadron, FN128, FN168, FN198, FN227 to 236, FN298 (first in September, 12 in October, last in December 1942)

1 for 896 squadron FN100 (November 1942)

7 for 898 squadron FN297, FN301 to 306 (November 1942)

16 Unknown (blank or no entry) FN290, FN291, FN292, FN295, FN296, FN299, FN300, FN307, FN309 to 319 (first 3 delivered in November but the destination is illegible, possibly a squadron or to UK)

Rest (130) to UK, 10 in August, 41 in September, 69 in October, 1 in November and 9 in December 1942.