1/72 F-86 kit with F-40 long wing? (for Norwegian Sabre)

[opus999]

I have the Cutting Edge decal set CED72025 ("F-86Fs & Sabres #3 Foreign aircraft"), with the plan of making the Norwegian F-86F of 338 sqn "MU-T" (s/n 25219).  The short question is: is there a 1/72 kit with recessed panel lines that has the F-40 extended wing (besides the HobbyBoss F-86F-40)?

 

I bought the HobbyBoss F-86F-40 because it was the only modern kit i could find that had the F-40 wing with the 1 foot wing extensions.  When it arrived it appeared to have too narrow chord.  I have the old Heller F-86 and the newer Academy F-86F to compare to.  The HB wing does indeed have a wider wingspan, but compared to the Heller, which has the narrow chord, slatted early wing, the HB is more swept back, but has a narrower chord at the wing tip.  Measuring both wings at the panel line at the wing tip, the Heller measures 25 mm chord and the HB measures 21 mm chord.  Measuring the HB at the beginning of the wing extension (the panel line ~1 scale foot inboard from the tip) it is 23 mm chord. So that doesn't seem right to me. I guess a secondary question is:  Is the HobbyBoss chord too narrow? (just as confirmation -- hey I might get lucky!  )

 

The final question I have is specific to Norwegian Sabres.  The Cutting Edge decal instructions say "F-86F-40 wing fitted" for the Norwegian Sabre.  However, I see MU-T (beautifully) modeled at IPMS Norway with a 6-3 hard wing with fences.  There's no detailed information there, so I don't know if it is because MU-T had a 6-3 hard wing at some point in its life or if that's the only kit the modeller could find. A decal review at Hyperscale states:

 

Quote

Caution. Most of the aircraft were delivered with the unslatted, broad chord  “6-3 wing” but were later modified with the long span, slattered 6-3 wing known as the F-40 wing.

So my final question for any Norsk Sabre experts out there is: Could MU-T have had a 6-3 wing in its life? (and I guess I should also ask: is there a modern 1/72 kit with a 6-3 wing?  The Airfix had/has one, but its hard to find them right now).

 

That's a lot of questions!  I've been researching this info off and on for a few months and I just can't quite get all the info, so any help would be appreciated! 

[72modeler]

@opus999,

 

Fujimi did a couple of boxings of F-86F's with F-40 wings; don't know how hard they are to come by, as Fujimi has never seen fit to re-release any of their 1/72 Sabres, IIRC. Kit numbers for some of their F-40 Sabre kits were: F36, F58, F21, and F33, All of the Fujimi Sabre kits had recessed panel lines. Hope this helps.

Mike

[Sabrejet]

5 hours ago, opus999 said:

So my final question for any Norsk Sabre experts out there is: Could MU-T have had a 6-3 wing in its life? (and I guess I should also ask: is there a modern 1/72 kit with a 6-3 wing?  The Airfix had/has one, but its hard to find them right now).

 

I'd say 'no'. Although Norwegian F-86Fs were delivered with the 6-3 wing, all appear to have been modified with the F-40 extended wingtips and leading-edge slats before entering service. And avoid the Airfix kit! I'd go with @72modeler and get the Fujimi kit every time

[Planebuilder62]

I found Fujimi F-86 in Plastbyggesett last year, maybe they are still there.

regards Toby

[RidgeRunner]

1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

And avoid the Airfix kit! I'd go with @72modeler and get the Fujimi kit every time

I’d agree  

[RidgeRunner]

There are a few on EBay at the moment. Location may be an issue, though. 

 

Martin

 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

The Heller 1/72 scale model has RNoAF markings.Maybe it has the correct wing.I do not know as I only build 1/48 scale kits.As far as I know the Fujimi kit has been re-released by Italeri a couple of years ago.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Hook]

6 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

The Heller 1/72 scale model has RNoAF markings.Maybe it has the correct wing.

The Heller kit is closest to a Canadair Sabre Mk. 6 - different wing than an F-40.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre 

 

[72modeler]

4 minutes ago, Hook said:

The Heller kit is closest to a Canadair Sabre Mk. 6 - different wing than an F-40.

 

IIRC, it's supposed to be a standard chord slatted wing, but  they got the wing sweep wrong. Does have very nice undercart/doors and correctly shaped speed brakes and speed brake bays,  as I recall.

Mike

[Tony Edmundson]

1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

IIRC, it's supposed to be a standard chord slatted wing, but  they got the wing sweep wrong. Does have very nice undercart/doors and correctly shaped speed brakes and speed brake bays,  as I recall.

Mike

yes,  Heller  did get the wing sweep wrong, but,  the chord measures the same as a 6-3 wing, so it could be used as a Sabre 6 once that silly raised panel is removed from the top of the fuselage and the ammo door rescribed to its proper location.   It is my go-to  source for donor  parts to improve a bunch of other substandard kits(Matchbox, Airfix).

 

Tony

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Tony Edmundson

[72modeler]

Thanks, Tony- my Mk 1a memory banks ain't what they used to be! So, am I correct in assuming the Heller F-86F wing is correct for a 6-3 slatted wing, as on a Mk 6 Sabre?

Mike 

 

I know it's been said before, but sure wish Arma Hobby would consider an F-86A/E/F-10 with the standard chord slatted wing...don't even care which variant of the three...  if they thought their P-51B/C kit was going to be a huge success....

 

BTW- best holiday wishes to you and yours from the Lone Star State! (Go to the funnies section for my Xmas parody!)

[Giorgio N]

2 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

The Heller 1/72 scale model has RNoAF markings.Maybe it has the correct wing.I do not know as I only build 1/48 scale kits.As far as I know the Fujimi kit has been re-released by Italeri a couple of years ago.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

They did but the variant reboxed by Italeri was not the F-40 but an F with the 6-3 wing

[Vingtor]

15 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

 

Although Norwegian F-86Fs were delivered with the 6-3 wing, all appear to have been modified with the F-40 extended wingtips and leading-edge slats before entering service.

 

Not entirely correct. Many aircraft flew a long time in RNAF (as it was back then) service with short, hard 6-3 wings before being retrofitted with the extended, slatted wings. They were furthermore delivered with standard US ejection seats, and retrofitted with MB seats during service. So you should check photos.

An useful compendium with lots of photos can be downloaded from https://flyblader.com/luftforsvaret.html. The text is in Norwegian but the photos speak for themselves. I have discovered a few errors in some of the profile drawings.

 

Nils

[Sabrejet]

5 minutes ago, Vingtor said:

 

Not entirely correct. Many aircraft flew a long time in RNAF (as it was back then) service with short, hard 6-3 wings before being retrofitted with the extended, slatted wings. They were furthermore delivered with standard US ejection seats, and retrofitted with MB seats during service. So you should check photos.

An useful compendium with lots of photos can be downloaded from https://flyblader.com/luftforsvaret.html. The text is in Norwegian but the photos speak for themselves. I have discovered a few errors in some of the profile drawings.

 

Nils

 

Nice one: many thanks for the clarification

[Dave Fleming]

3 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Thanks, Tony- my Mk 1a memory banks ain't what they used to be! So, am I correct in assuming the Heller F-86F wing is correct for a 6-3 slatted wing, as on a Mk 6 

Yeah, the kit was always meant to be a mk 6

[old_tonto]

16 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

 

And avoid the Airfix kit! 

Can I just ask what is wrong with the Airfix kit?

[Tony Edmundson]

2 hours ago, old_tonto said:

Can I just ask what is wrong with the Airfix kit?

Landing gear is atrocious, cockpit is basic with fiction behind the seat, canopy framing is too thin, wing fences at the wrong location as is the wing tank pylons,  ......for a start.

 

Tony

[Sabrejet]

6 hours ago, Tony Edmundson said:

Landing gear is atrocious, cockpit is basic with fiction behind the seat, canopy framing is too thin, wing fences at the wrong location as is the wing tank pylons,  ......for a start.

 

Tony

That pretty much covers it. Merry Christmas

[opus999]

On 12/23/2021 at 8:22 PM, 72modeler said:

Kit numbers for some of their F-40 Sabre kits were: F36, F58, F21, and F33, All of the Fujimi Sabre kits had recessed panel lines. Hope this helps.

This helps immensely!  Thank you!  I just wasn't able to figure this out through internet searching.

 

On 12/23/2021 at 10:25 PM, Sabrejet said:

I'd go with @72modeler and get the Fujimi kit every time

 

On 12/24/2021 at 12:46 AM, RidgeRunner said:

There are a few on EBay at the moment. Location may be an issue, though. 

I decided that Fujimi was the way to go and I went over to ebay.  Nice to see they're available, but I sure get chapped when shipping costs more than the kit -- especially when it's coming from Canada, which is on the same continent for pete's sake!

 

On 12/24/2021 at 8:38 AM, GiampieroSilvestri said:

The Heller 1/72 scale model has RNoAF markings.Maybe it has the correct wing.

I built this kit with the Norwegian markings when I was in High school.  The wing is not correct.  Plus it has raised panel lines, which I don't feel like messing with on a NMF build.  My Heller RNoAF build is currently collecting dust awaiting a restoration into a camo'd F-86....  

 

On 12/24/2021 at 1:46 PM, Vingtor said:

An useful compendium with lots of photos can be downloaded from https://flyblader.com/luftforsvaret.html.

Nils, Mange Tusen Takk for this resource!!  It's actually more helpful than you realize because I would like to make a model of all the Fighters the RNoAF has flown.

 

On 12/24/2021 at 1:46 PM, Vingtor said:

The text is in Norwegian but the photos speak for themselves.

Lucky for me I can read Norwegian!  

 

On 12/24/2021 at 3:20 PM, old_tonto said:

Can I just ask what is wrong with the Airfix kit?

 

On 12/24/2021 at 5:29 PM, Tony Edmundson said:

Landing gear is atrocious, cockpit is basic with fiction behind the seat, canopy framing is too thin, wing fences at the wrong location as is the wing tank pylons,  ......for a start.

When I knew a lot less about F-86's (and I am not an expert by any means), I built the Airfix F-86.  I really enjoyed the build as it went together very well and I really liked the details.  Ignorance is bliss, however, because as I've learned more about Sabres, the more I see wrong with it.

[opus999]

Thanks everyone for the insightful discussion!

 

Looking at the monograph that @Vingtor pointed me to, it states on page 45 that since 338 squadron received their F-86F's after 1960, they all had the Martin Baker seat and F-40 wings.  So it looks like the Fujimi is going to be the route I'll take.  And I really need to thank @72modeler again for the kit numbers, it would've taken me a while to figure that out.

 

Now I need to figure out how to justify to SWMBO paying $20 shipping for a kit...  

[Vingtor]

13 hours ago, opus999 said:

Looking at the monograph that @Vingtor pointed me to, it states on page 45 that since 338 squadron received their F-86F's after 1960, they all had the Martin Baker seat and F-40 wings.

Actually it does not state that. 338 Sqn. received their first F-86Fs in 1958. But not for very long. They soon had to give them away and continue flying Thunderjets. But in 1960 they converted to F-86F for the second time.

I have a few photos of 338 Sqn. F-86Fs with US seats. But none with the short 6-3 wings.

[Julien]

A real pity Italeri cant rebox the F-40 kit like they did the 6-3 one

[opus999]

9 hours ago, Vingtor said:

Actually it does not state that. 338 Sqn. received their first F-86Fs in 1958. But not for very long. They soon had to give them away and continue flying Thunderjets. But in 1960 they converted to F-86F for the second time.

I have a few photos of 338 Sqn. F-86Fs with US seats. But none with the short 6-3 wings.

 

Strange.  I'm looking at the print page 45 with the profile and it says "after 1960".

 

I just read print page 44 (pdf page 45) and now I see what you're talking about.  I guess that's what I get for reading the short version!

 

 

[opus999]

I went and retrieved the serial number for MU-T from the decals (25219) and looked it up on the monograph.  On print page 66 (pdf page 67), 52-5219 flew as MU-T from January 66 to July 66.  It also says on that page that the F-40 wing was mounted in Bodø in February of 1959 and the Martin Baker seat installed in March of 1960.  What a great resource this is!  

 

So that confirms the configuration of MU-T for me.

[72modeler]

@Vingtor,

 

Thank you for the link- those were beautiful photos and aircraft histories/serials! I guess I need to score some more kits, as I want to do ALL of them! Those No. 388 Squadron  Sabres are the bee's knees! 

Mike