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Great Grandfathers model of HMS Westminster- help needed!


GRK

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Hi all

 

I've recently become the custodian of my Great Grandfather's 70cm, wood and tin model of HMS Westminster in which he served in 1919 (I have a letter from that date but don't know from when and to he was on Westminster). I've done a bit of research and it looks like it was on patrol in the Baltic supporting the white Russians at that time.

 

Overall its not in too bad shape, the lights don't work anymore and the railings and rigging are mostly snapped, along with a few of the masts. I'd like to restore it but I know next to nothing about ship modelling and certainly not one made 100 years ago with no plastic involved, so i've come here for advice!

 

So step one will be to de-dust the model (also happy to take recommendations on the best way to do this as i was just going to use soapy water and cotton buds) and refit most of the loose superstructure. I'd like to know what people would recommend for re threading the railings. He seems to have used a very thin twine but there's absolutely no 'fluff' so it looks like metal- any recommendations on a modern equivalent that I'd be able to use?

 

Apologies if this is in the wrong section- maybe WiP would be more appropriate! Its a cracking model and completely scratch built which leaves my modern approach to modelling look extremely lazy in comparison but its been good to learn that modelling certainly runs in the family! 

 

Any tips greatly appreciated!

 

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You can see the 'thread' railings a bit better here:

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I'm also struggling to see what would have fitted into the two holes here:

IMG_1436

 

 

 

 

 

 

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That's a truly wonderful keepsake from your great grandfather!

My grandfather was also involved in supporting the White Russians, but he was in Vladivostok in the American Expeditionary Force, Siberia.

 

As for dusting, I know that wooden ship modellers will use their saliva on a cotton bud to clean dust--it's apparently more effective than plain water. Be careful not to scrub, but to dab. If you're going to replace the thread, you could try wooden ship model sources. In the days of incandescent bulbs, running thread across a beeswax block and then over a 100W bulb would singe loose hairs and infuse the beeswax into the thread to stiffen it.

 

HTH

-- 

dnl

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Just be careful with the spit on a cotton bud method - the model is old enough to have lead based paint. I know that you won’t remoisten the bud - until you do…If you have a museum handy then a discussion with a conservator might be a useful start. It is a lovely bit of family history and with the provenance you have provided for your great grandfather’s connection and family history it is worth doing it right. Is it a powered model?

 

cheers

 

Steve

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5 hours ago, GRK said:

Any tips greatly appreciated!

I suspect that @iang @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies @dickrd @foeth   would all find this an interesting artefact, and would also perhaps have some suggestions.

 

One thing I would consider is a getting a case for it after cleaning up. 

 

You may also want to have search about for scratchbuild ship modellers forums. 

 

Finally,  perhaps stating the obvious,  a over enthusiastic restoration done carelessly would be worse that just a careful wipe over to get the dust off and straitening out a few obvious dings.  

 

Thanks for sharing this on here,  any idea of scale?   I know that a many builder models (models built by the shipyards) were to 1/48th scale,  you might want to see if it does scale out to anything.

 

HTH

 

 

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Hi GRK, now that's a proper model! Unfortunately I'm definitely not best placed to answer these questions, but I would attempt to model a ship first, a v/w class would help, such as Tamiya's Vampire (link), which also has a pe set by WEM (link). It appears this wasn't too modified prior to WW2, unlike some of the others, although my knowledge of these destroyers is patchy at best. Sorry for my attempts to bring you into the fold...but I think it might help this bigger project.

 

On the actual rebuild, I think @dnl42is right on the beeswax and bulb, but tbh it's the first time I've heard of this method, just looks right. Other bits could be thin wire, I can't tell. Personally, I would probably attempt to recreate the method previously used, but when I failed at that I'd probably revert to the usual thin thread, wire or stretched sprue or leave as is and claim battle damage.

 

What I would advise is on dusting and cleaning, please try this out on the underside of the removable deck first is my main suggestion. Depending on how your great grandfather sealed the wood (or not) and the condition of such, you might experience warping or at the very least (what I call) 'fluffing' of exposed wood (where tiny bits lift up) that would need sanding out and potentially filling in, you'd be surprised how little water is needed to cause a big impact, especially on some woods or ages thereof. Otherwise, some liquid/cleaner may damage the finish (esp if shellac). I wouldn't use soapy water, I'd imagine that's too aggressive on what is essentially an antique that I cannot clearly tell the status of, but there are specialist cleaners available, although again-given its importance, age and however it was constructed, I dare not venture a guess or suggestion (I used http://www.jpennyltd.co.uk/ for some wood projects I had, which should give a rough idea of various kinds available, you may need something more specialist than what they offer). An antique furniture specialist might be well placed to advise though.

 

Failing that, I personally would very lightly wipe in small circular motions with 0000+ grade steel wool first (if the dust is caked on), which should then allow you to see the overall condition underneath before going to a proper cleaning stage. If not caked on, then a softer method would be better, although I would still attempt to keep it dry. A proper cleaning stage would then be the product best suited once you know the condition of the wood/previous sealant/wax) underneath.

 

I can't emphasise the very lightly enough though, it's just to see what's under the dust (you'll need to ensure it doesn't just smear around).  Small circles will ensure that any damage that may occur should blend in, but obv stop at that point and review an even lighter cleaning method. Failing that, anything to remove some of the dust without damaging underneath will allow you to see the condition and proceed with a full cleaning method.

 

Sorry I can't be of more help, but hopefully that long reply is mildly useful. But I'm no expert by anyone's imagination here, so keen to hear what others say (especially if it's to tell you not to follow my advise if it'll be detrimental).

 

David

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Whilst until quite recently this model may have been dismissed as fanciful, it now looks like a little gem. Although I can't put my hands on it right now in my files, I'm sure I have something contemporary requiring Destroyers to be painted black. The less walked-on decks are painted with the same paint and there is a representation of linoleum on the walkways. The underwater hull is grey. This all seems to "check out" against more recent research. Fantastic. I note also that there is no obvious boot topping which could be deliberate or perhaps just a lack of different blacks to use.

 

Repair would be good, but were it me I'd want to conserve the original paint here rather than paint over it or strip it. Please post updates if you do decide to restore this model :)

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Hi,

 

what a fascinating  artifact and a great thing to share here. I don’t have much to add except that I would be tempted to see if I could hunt down a professional art restorer (perhaps at a museum or university or art gallery) and either engage their services or get their advice.

 

Beyond cleaning, I would favour a very light restoration or possibly no restoration at all and getting a dust proof Perspex case made up for it for long-term safe storage & display.

 

At this point I shall also alert @Steve D to this as I think he may have some expertise to contribute especially WRT sheet metal work.

 

Good luck with this one. 👍

 

Steve

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Hi,

 

Thanks @Bandsaw Steve for mentioning me, not sure what help I can be on the sheet metal work but please pm me and I'll be delighted to assist.  My Grandfather served on an M class destroyer on WW1, the predecessor of the V&W classes

 

As Steve H says, Westminster was a later V&W class destroyer, according to Edger J March's British Destroyers, she was built by J S White and launched in February 1918.  March has the following GA of the V class, W's were very similar but had triple tube mounts not double as shown below

 

It looks like your Granddad had it pretty well modelled, given the scale considerations, its a treasure :thumbsup:

 

v class composite

 

March also has the following two images, the first being Warwick, a sister ship

 

w class

 

For once, @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies is wrong.  Destroyers were painted black overall pre-war and up to Jutland but part of the lessons learned from that battle was that  black stands out very well at night (counter intuitive) and also made confusion with German destroyers (also black) too easy.  They were all repainted grey during the summer of 1916 so she would have been grey overall with white pennant numbers like Warwick in the picture above.  The M class builder's model in the IWM reserve collection which I've viewed is also grey with red oxide below the water-line, with a black boot topping.  The white funnel strip on Whirlwind is, I believe, a flotilla leader marking, her white numbers have been painted out by the censor.

 

The brown on the deck is I believe indicating coir matting, which was lashed in place as an anti-slip treatment, they had white canvas bound edges

 

Re you handrails, there are various braided wire ropes I use but to be more in keeping with the spirit of such an early model, I would use very fine copper wire (0,3 mm is easy to source), 2 or 3  strands wound together.  This will lay well between the stanchions

 

Happy to help in any way, just ask.  Lovely model, I'm very jealous  :jealous:

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

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1 minute ago, Steve D said:

For once, @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies is wrong.  Destroyers were painted black overall pre-war and up to Jutland but part of the lessons learned from that battle was that  black stands out very well at night (counter intuitive) and also made confusion with German destroyers (also black) too easy.  They were all repainted grey during the summer of 1916 so she would have been grey overall with white pennant numbers like Warwick in the picture above.  The M class builder's model in the IWM reserve collection which I've viewed is also grey with red oxide below the water-line, with a black boot topping.  The white funnel strip on Whirlwind is, I believe, a flotilla leader marking, her white numbers have been painted out by the censor

 

 

Thanks Steve, I hadn't been able today to find that order and I shouldn't have used the words "sure" and "contemporary" together because what I really meant was "think" and "sometime around WWI"! Thanks for clearing up!

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14 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

Thanks for clearing up

Hi Jamie,

 

I'd not meant to call you out so harshly, your expertise in ship colours is legend, :worthy: apologies if it came over that way. 

 

20 years ago I spent 4 years modelling my grandfather's ship (including reading the ships logs) and did just a pile of research on WW1 destroyers.  She was HMS Medea and I've modelled her in black as she was before Jutland hence for once my confidence in what is a notorious subject for traps...

 

I've not been able to find in my reference books any image of Westminster, but here are two further sister ships in 1920 and 1918 respectively, interesting range of funnel bands colours ...

This image is from Cocker's Destroyers of the Royal Navy, 1893 - 1981.  Considering the small vessels called were called destroyers in 1914, the W and modified W class were serious vessels that served through to the end of WW2.  Compare to the horrible US 4 stackers we got on lend lease....

 

W class2

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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18 minutes ago, Steve D said:

I'd not meant to call you out so harshly, your expertise in ship colours is legend, :worthy: apologies if it came over that way. 

 

For the avoidance of any doubt, should it exist, no offence was taken whatsoever :)

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A big thank you to you all for all the helpful tips and information, I'd hoped that there would be people here who would find it interesting and would like to see the model.

 

Reading your comments has made me take a step back and have a proper think about what i want to do and how to go about it. I knew that i didn't want to alter the paintwork and only want to restore rather than re work it and i must admit i was wondering about the black and the grey below the waterline so thanks @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies and @Steve D.

 

@wombat The comment about the repair workshop programme made me laugh as its exactly what my wife said. I'd like to do bits on it that i feel comfortable with (I think dust removal and hopefully the railings should be doable- thanks for the tips on the twisted copper wire and beeswax), however the deck is warped and split in some places which presents a bit more of a challenge that I'm not sure I'm up to yet! Then there's all the electrical parts that i have absolutely no idea about but I'm hoping my father in law might- I'm not even sure if the propeller er.. propels.

 

@Steve D Thank you for the drawings- it does indeed look like he did an excellent job getting it to scale- apart from the guns which are much too thick!!!

Edited by GRK
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