DKM Seydlitz WW2

[ArnoldAmbrose]

     Gidday All, usually I am able to concentrate on only one model ship at a time hence I rarely have two on the go simultaneously. So what have I just gone and done? Started a third.😫 Besides Britmodeller I'm also a member of the ATF (Airfix Tribute Forum) and it's traditional for that forum to hold a "What If GB" for two months over December and January. I was going to give this year a miss but I'm a sucker for punishment I guess and couldn't resist - I signed up.

 

      In the 1930s Germany began a class of heavy cruisers known as the 'Hipper' class, after the name ship. Three were built, Hipper, Blucher and Prinz Eugen. The latter was built to a slightly different design. Another two were commenced, Seydlitz and Lutzow. These two were to be 'light cruiser' versions of the class, being armed with twelve 15cm guns in four triple turrets. At a full load displacement of over 20,000 tons however they were anything but light, but then it was main gun size not ship size that differentiated between light and heavy cruisers.
     It was decided before construction began however that these last two would also be armed as heavy cruisers with 8-inch guns. By 1940 Seydlitz was about 95% complete as such when her fitting out was put on hold. In 1942 it was decided to convert her to an aircraft carrier. She was renamed 'Weser' and the upperworks removed from her before a flight deck was fitted. She was never completed as a carrier however. In late January 1945 she was scuttled in Konigsberg, and later scrapped by the Russians.

     But what if she was completed as originally planned, with four triple 15cm turrets? She may have looked something like I plan to build here. I'll be using Airfix's "Prinz Eugen" as the donor kit. Below is the traditional photo of box art, instructions and parts. You can also see part of a drawing of a 'K' class cruiser, showing the triple turrets. That drawing is not the exact same scale as the kit however.

 

     I've started construction on DKM Seydlitz in that I've glued the hull halves together, plus reinforced the join with scrap styrene and drilled the mounting holes.

     This ship will carry four triple 15cm turrets, which I'll have to scratch build. You can see one of the drawings of the 'K' class cruiser and turrets that I'm using, that show the turrets in 1/600 scale. I've read that the final cruiser to carry these turrets, Nurnberg, had slightly larger turrets and it follows that Seydlitz being a later vessel would have shipped these larger turrets also, so I've enlarged them by 10% to fit the molded barbettes of the kit. Being a whiff I can get away with this. 😁
     On the block of wood behind the model is my first trial at scratch building the turrets. Due to the method I now use for fitting turrets to models of large cruisers and above I don't have to wait until they're done - I can proceed with the ship build. More on that later.
    As an aside, I consider 15cm guns on such a large cruiser to be a bit of a waste, an under-gunned ship so in the past I'd been considering a slightly smaller model similar to this for some time. I'd planned on shortening the hull by about 25mm (which equates to 50 feet in this scale) and naming the ship Wiesbaden to commemorate the light cruiser of WW1 that took a pulverizing at Jutland. But that would require quite a bit of follow-on alterations and hence a longer build time and my build program is rather full at present so Seydlitz it is, OOB as much as possible. There was a Seydlitz at Jutland too, a battlecruiser and she took a hammering also but survived it. Just. I'd like to model her one day too, but not just now.
    Anyway, this is as far as I've gone at present. I hope to move swiftly with this build but as I've found in the past "swiftly" is a relative term for my builds, to be taken in the broadest possible sense. 😁
    So stay safe in these times and regards to all, Jeff.

[Faraway]

This is another one for me to watch. 👍👍👍👍
Jon

[Modelholic]

I think as per original is the way to go!

Having a smaller calibre gun (less weight) would the turrets have had extra armour?

8" twin 240,000 - 260,000kg

15cm triple (Nurnberg) 147,000kg + change.

(from here) http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_Main.php

So they could be slightly bigger than Nurnberg's triples.

Tom

[Adm Lord De Univers]

Just triples or just four of them seems a waste on such a hull...I mean bridges and engineering spaces do really get in the way, don't they? Now you slap in some double 11inchers and you've got yourself one powerful little boat.

 

Anyway I digress with my fantasies, very interesting topic, which I didn't know about before (that she was a  'light' variant). Does seem like a waste to convert a 95% complete ship though.

 

I'm onboard!

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday all, I've got a small amount of progress to report on DKM Seydlitz. I've glued in the shafts and rudder but I'll leave the screws 'til later.

    As you can see the hull needed a bit of filler and sanding. Sitting on the deck is the trial turret I've been working on. It's rather average - the beveled top edges along the sides make things difficult. Each is in two parts. The front part is styrene strip and was awkward to get it to fit. The rear part is Tamiya filler. I think that may be the way to go.
  You can also see that I've done the shelterdeck. It's inverted (upside down) in the photo. Those white bits of plastic are to reinforce the join. You can see that I haven't gone far. Well that's it for now, I can't keep my eyes open. Thanks for looking in. So goodnight all. Stay safe, and regards, Jeff.

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday All, just to show that DKM Seydlitz is progressing albeit slowly I thought it's about time for another post. I've mainly been painting, as you can see below. I've modeled the camo scheme from a diagram I have of Hipper in 1942, with alternate light and dark greys to use what I have in stock. The light grey is Revell 76 and the dark grey is Humbrol 67. It's darker than what I expected, almost black. Being a whiff though I guess I can get away with it. Time is a bit pressing so I don't think I'll redo it.

     Please excuse the messy work bench. Not much to show for a week, so much for a swift build. Doing another model concurrently (HMS Hardy) is slowing me down somewhat as it breaks my continuity of planning, such as it is. Oh well, I'll see how things pan out. I think I know how I'm going to do the turrets for the ship, I'll try to start them soon.
     So that's it for now. Stay safe and regards to all, Jeff.

[Modelholic]

Jeff,

Messy workbenches = intensive modelling.

Is it just the camera angle or are those prop shafts asymmetrical?

I'd say the port one is too far aft.

Tom

[GrantGoodale]

"Please excuse the messy work bench." A pristine work bench is a sign of a sick and twisted mind 🙂

 

[Iceman 29]

5 hours ago, Modelholic said:

Messy workbenches = intensive modelling.

 

Tom

 

I quite agree!  😜

[ArnoldAmbrose]

    Gidday, thanks guys. And Tom, it must be the camera angle. I checked and they're OK but thanks anyway. If I had to alter them now would be the time to do it. What is slightly short are the shaft struts (legs). I may not have had those skegs fitted tightly enough and hence the struts didn't reach the hull. I should have replaced them but instead I bent the shafts upwards just a touch so they did reach. That's obvious in the photo above.

     DKM Seydlitz now has her hull painted. I did the boot topping this morning and I have to admit it's not my best effort. I think I forgot to tamp down the top edge of the lower masking tape and as a result there's been quite a bit of bleeding underneath it. I should have not rushed it as much, and run a bead of hull red along that edge before applying the black. Oh well, I guess I've got a bit of touching up to do.

     To me the hull painted is the first major milestone. Next I've got to start painting the camo patterns on the upperworks to match those of the hull. And the touching up of the lousy boot topping paint job. And start making the turrets. So that's it for now. Stay safe and regards to all, Jeff.

[TallBlondJohn]

Gröner's German Warships 1815-1945 shows Lutzow / Seydlitz with slighter larger 6" triples than the Nurnbergs, basically a bit wider. They would have had the room so why not use it - and extra armour too. Enjoy the build!

[Modelholic]

Jeff,

Glad I was wrong! 

When you replied to my post I was using my  mobile and its obvious when you zoom in.

Tom

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday Tom, that's OK. I've been known to miss things and so it helps if potential problems get spotted by others. I'm grateful and flattered by the interest shown by all of you.

     I've not much to report on this at present. I've been plodding away at the painting and have started making the turrets. I've also been plodding away at my model of HMS Hardy in the 2021 KUTA GB and Boxing Day I devoted to a scratchbuilt 1/600 model of a Grumman F7F Tigercat in the Christmas Blitzenbuild GB, just for something different. Once I have something worth showing here I'll make another post with a photo. 

     Thanks again for your interest. Stay safe, and regards, Jeff.

[agyoung33]

Hey nice one Jeff! Told you I'd get around to following one of your builds - even though I'm months late! 

 

And what a build! Right! I'll just quietly amble back to the back of the hall! 

 

Cheers

Gary

[robgizlu]

Nice looking paintwork

Rob

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday All, I've finally sorted the triple 15cm turrets for DKM Seydlitz. These are a bit bigger than those of the K class cruisers in the same scale. I've read that the turrets of Nurnberg were a little larger than those of the preceding ships and as @TallBlondJohn says those of the Seydlitz were to be bigger again. (Sorry I haven't replied sooner, TBJ.) I have a couple of plan diagrams of the K's turrets so I enlarged them on a photocopier. The barbettes of the Prinz Eugen model are 11mm in diameter so I decided to make the width of these triples to match the barbettes hence I enlarged the plans to 11cm wide for ease of measuring. The height of the turrets and the length of the guns I kept the same as the K's.
     Below is a photo showing the stages of the turret construction.

1.     The base plate cut out. This was made from 1mm thick styrene to give a firm base and the dimensions reduced by 0.5mm all the way round to allow for the thickness of the sides, hence it is 10mm wide and 13mm long. You can see some of the other parts next to it.
2.     The external sides fitted, all of which are 0.5mm thick and 3.2mm high except the front face. Each side is of a single piece, with the sloped front edge cut first. I glued each front facet of the sides first and when the glue was dry I compressed the rear facets to the baseplate and glued them next. As you can see I like to re-inforce my glued joins with small lengths of square section styrene, 1mm square in this case. Once the sides were fitted I attached the rear facet but I rolled it around a 4mm drill bit first to give it some curve. Obviously 4mm is too tight a curve initially but It tends to straighten out so this worked well. And finally the front face of the turret. This initially is 4.8mm high but gets trimmed later.
3.     The internal bits added. First I added another piece of styrene behind the turret face. This is 0.75mm thick, 2.5mm high and will support the front edge of the turret crown/roof. Next the centre shaft/trunk is added. This is 4mm tube. The shaft/trunk will be 4.8mm (5/16-inch) tube but there wasn't sufficient space for the larger tube because of that centre "wall" across the turret. That mid-turret wall is from 0.75mm styrene strip, is 3.2mm high and will support the apex of the turret crown. The turret crown will be of two pieces, the front piece being a 6mm wide strip (measured from turret front to turret apex) and this wall positioned to support the join of the two pieces. At each end of the mid-turret wall you can see extra 0.75mm styrene. This is to anchor the two sighting hoods protruding from the top of the turret. More on that soon.
4.     The turret crown added. As I said, this is in two pieces, both from 0.5mm thick styrene sheet. The front piece is a strip cut 6mm wide and tapers front to rear. The front edge is 10mm wide, the rear edge (at the turret apex) is 8mm. The rear piece is a strip 7mm wide (to overhang the rear of the turret) and again tapers a little, being 8mm wide at the front (the turret apex) and 7mm wide at the rear of the turret. Once these two are glued on you can do a bit of trimming. The turret face can be trimmed down to match the front of the turret crown (roof) and the rear of the turret crown trimmed to match the curved rear wall of the turret. Also trim away the visible 'corners' of the mid-turret supports and the two top corners of the turret face to match the turret sides and front edge of the roof.
5.     Now fill those open top edges of the turret with filler using the styrene edges as guides. I've used Tamiya filler which seems to shrink into a concave face when drying hence two goes at this may be required. In this photo I haven't sanded the first lot of filler yet.
6.      Add guns and sighting hoods. The guns are the same length as those of my 1/600 scale drawing of the K's turrets. I simply scraped and sanded some 0.75mm styrene rod then cut them 13mm long, 3mm of which is inside the turret, 10mm visible. The guns are 3mm apart and I've made a jig to help me position the gun muzzles. Also drill holes for the two protruding sighting hoods. These are from 0.5mm styrene rod and are at the turret crown, just outside of the styrene roof. Drill down through the filler into the styrene underneath.  Cut to appropriate length and glue into the holes. I didn't think glue would work on the Tamiya filler hence that's why the extra styrene was added to the mid-turret wall (see the end of stage 3).
      I plan to complete all six turrets and use the best four for the model. I still have to glue 4.8mm tubing for the turret trunk over the existing 4mm tube, and then add a keyway to the front of the trunk. This will allow me to have the turrets removable yet locked in once the model is complete.

Well that's about it for now. I drilled out and slotted the barbettes last night and glued in the upper deck to the hull this morning. I'll post a photo once the tape comes off.
     Sometime in the future I'd like to scratchbuild a model of one of the K class cruisers. I'm thinking of making the turrets now while the method is still fresh in my mind. These turrets will be narrower than those for this model, 9.5mm wide instead of 11mm and also correspondingly shorter so I can't use my two leftovers. They'll be the same height and with guns the same length however.
     So until next time, stay safe and regards to all, Jeff.

[Ray S]

Good work on this, and a very nice tutorial on 'how to make turrets' - thanks for that!

 

Happy New Year,

 

Ray

[agyoung33]

Some delicate, time consuming work there Jeff! Keep on going mate!!  

 

Cheers

Gary

Edited January 4, 2022 by agyoung33

[beefy66]

Well someone has been busy and I thought I was doing a lot of work on my build looking great so far Jeff.  

 

Stay Safe

beefy

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday All, Thanks for your comments and interest, guys, much appreciated.

     Just over a week ago my computer chose to throw a spatz (the hard drive crashed). I got my computer back only this evening, fortunately the info on the old hard drive was able to be recovered and transferred to the new. But things operate a little differently now. Being incommunicado for a week was rather frustrating and I've quite a bit of catching up to do.

 

     In the photo below you can see that DKM Seydlitz now has her upper deck glued and I've been doing a bit of painting. But a lot of my time has been spent on doing the turrets.

     In the foreground is the shelterdeck. I've painted the bulkheads (walls) but that's in shadow in this photo. Two turrets have their guns fitted and a third, on the block in front of the hull, is sitting in the jig getting armed also. After the photo showing the construction stages of the turrets was posted I've been completing all six, although I only need four. In the photo however you'll count seven scratched turrets. That in the extreme top left of the photo is my original trial turret. That one won't be advanced any further. Also on that wood block you can see my remaining gun barrels. Yes, I know, there's only eight, one has gone missing. I can't think where but the carpet monster is looking rather smug. I guess I'll have to make another, no big deal. As the aft barbettes show, they've been drilled/reamed out to 4.8mm (5/16 inch) and slotted for the turret trunk and keyway.
     On the foc'sle of the ship you can see one of the kit turrets, which are a bit smaller than those I'm making. The kit guns however are quite a bit longer, about 5mm longer in this model scale. The German 8-inch gun was a 60cal gun which means that the bore (I think) was 60 x 8 inches long, or 40 feet long. By comparison, the American 8-inch was a 55cal gun, the RN and Australian 8-inch was a 50cal gun.

     Despite no computer I haven't been idle. I've now completed the turrets and attached the shelter deck.

     Since this photo was taken I've completed all six turrets, chosen which four to use (a difficult choice as none of them was perfect) and slapped some paint on them. Plus a bit of paint on the aft superstructure.
     In the background you can see my model of HMS Hardy which has also been given a bit of attention.

Well, that's it for now. Stay safe in these times, and regards to all, Jeff.

[robgizlu]

Good to have you back Jeff - she's looking nice on that base

Rob

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday Rob, and thanks. Actually, the base you see is simply a piece of pine that the model is screwed to while building. HMS Hardy in the background has the same, albeit smaller. The wood screwed to the hull means I don't have to handle the actual model itself, plus it protects the shafts and rudder(s) and the screws if fitted. The wood is heavy enough that the model often will lie on it's side if required or it can be placed at an angle in a clamp or vice if I need it to. When the model is completed the screws are removed from underneath and the wood comes away. The screw holes in the bottom of the hull can't be seen. 

     I have several display stands for photos of completed builds, in the form of drydock supports, different sizes for different size ships. When the model finally goes into the display cabinet it simply has a small piece of flat MDF, painted flat black and screwed to the underside of the hull. It looks a bit crude in photos but in the display cabinet it is surprisingly discrete.

     Regards, Jeff.

[Faraway]

11 minutes ago, ArnoldAmbrose said:

The wood screwed to the hull means I don't have to handle the actual model itself, plus it protects the shafts and rudder(s) and the screws

Jeff.

I found that, whilst building ‘Mourne’. It was so much easier to handle, so much so, I’m probably going to mount any future builds after the hull is painted.

Jon

 

[Modelholic]

Is the rest of the build going to be OOB or are there any more subtle differences your going to incorporate (main battery directors perhaps)?

I don't know of any two KM ships that were exactly the same.

Tom

[Courageous]

Good progress there Jeff, she's taken shape nicely.

 

Stuart