Australia switches from Taipan to Black Hawk

[Seahawk]

27 minutes ago, Beermonster1958 said:

Such cynicism is most unbecoming! 😉😂👍

 

John

"A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist."  Sir Humphrey Appleby, (who knew a thing or two about these things).

[Devo]

On 12/11/2021 at 8:43 PM, Blimpyboy said:

I do like the rather telling first sentence from the following statement, in 2017, by the then CO of the 5th Aviation Regiment, LTCOL Gilfillan:

 

"In the end, Taipan is the aircraft the Australian Government chose to acquire, and we have a duty to make it work,” said LTCOL Gilfillan in closing. “What I’m trying to do is to be positive about the aircraft, because positive thinking is far more likely to bring success than negative thinking. But it’s a fantastic helicopter – I am not only very positive about the aircraft itself, but also in our ability to make it work. It’s been a journey and we have positive momentum, and I’m excited about what the possibilities are.”

 

Says it all, I think!

 

From: https://adbr.com.au/into-a-rhythm-the-mrh-90-taipans-long-journey-to-success/

 

And the possibilities are that it didn't work for what it was intended to do.....no amount of positive thinking will change that!!

[Blimpyboy]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:57 PM, Bandsaw Steve said:

does anyone have any information or thoughts  on how the RNZAF is getting on with its NH90s?

From what little non-party line info I’ve seen, the Kiwis seem reasonably happy with their NH90s… now.

 

Going back in time, ‘though, to 2015, things may not have been so rosy, as this NZ Herald (accuracy not known by me) article closes with: “Ageing equipment that breaks down and has high maintenance costs is a bad enough look. Expensive state-of-the-art equipment unsuitable for the task for which it was bought is, in many ways, even worse.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/editorial-challenging-nh90-helicopters-sorry-look-for-govt/XVAI5UJCT3VWDK46AEG2GK5NMQ/

 

 

[Bandsaw Steve]

Thanks,
 

That’s an interesting read. The RNZAF fosters a reputation of being able to do a lot with a little and being able to ‘make do’ with improvisation and determination, but it’s hard to know how far that can go in the face of very modern, very high-tech gear. 
 

I really hope that the NH 90 works out for them.

 

If course If they can make it all work they might just pick up a bargain from Australia.

[alex]

Just read that QANTAS switches its short haul fleet from Boeing to Airbus. Apparently, not everything made in Europe performs badly...

 

Alex

[Slater]

1 hour ago, alex said:

Just read that QANTAS switches its short haul fleet from Boeing to Airbus. Apparently, not everything made in Europe performs badly...

 

Alex

Well, the USAF should be operating the KC-45 by now, but that's a whole different story...

[alex]

They even would, if they had chosen it... actually, the military even did chose it. But some politicians thought it would be a better idea to buy Boeing instead.

 

Alex

[Blimpyboy]

23 hours ago, alex said:

Apparently, not everything made in Europe performs badly...

Totally agree, particularly when it comes to Airbus’ stock-in-trade designs, and when dealing mainly with high profit/turnover commercial entities (rather than taxpayer-funded bureaucracies…)!

 

 

 

[Alan P]

On 12/11/2021 at 10:49 AM, Seahawk said:

Is it looking to replace its Pumas or saying it's looking to replace its Pumas?

 

Let me polish my crystal ball and see how this will pan out:

 

1.  The Pumas will be summarily withdrawn and their squadrons disbanded.  Those who bemoan the resulting capability gap will be pacified by vague unatrributable statements that the MOD is "looking to" replace them.  In political terms I believe this is called an "aspiration" rather than a "commitment".

2.  There will be a couple of years of studies and feasibility surveys to give the illusion of activity, during which the money for the project (if there ever was any) will be diverted elsewhere.

3.  After a decent interval, ie once the decision-makers reckon everyone has forgotten that we ever had any Pumas, it will be announced, preferably on a day when the journos' attention is distracted by another story (i), that, surprise, surprise, the Pumas' role can be perfectly well fulfilled by other assets: this will either be not true or fail to take account of the fact that those assets are already fully committed to being somewhere else doing something else at the time and are unfortunately unable to be in two places at the same time.  Case in point: Bloodhound was supposed to be replaced by a new Medium Range SAM until someone came to the dazzling insight that the role could be fulfilled by RN AD destroyers (which themselves got cut from the planned 12 to 6).

 

(i)  December 23rd is always a popular day: journos already have packed up for Christmas and by New Year no-one will care.

I wish I could 'like' this a zillion times. Nailed it.

[Slater]

Looks like some munitions replenishment is in order:

 

https://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/Press Release - Australia 21-60 CN.pdf

[Natter]

On 12/11/2021 at 1:15 AM, Devo said:

Please note that my sarcasm meter is turned up to 11.

Really? You don't say. 😉

[dcrfan]

On 12/12/2021 at 3:57 PM, Bandsaw Steve said:

Just out of interest, does anyone have any information or thoughts  on how the RNZAF is getting on with its NH90s?

 

If the kiwis are getting on OK with their’s, perhaps they might pick up some surplus Aussie units?

The first RNZAF NH-90 just reached 2000 hrs flying hours the highest in the world and number two is apparently close behind.  https://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/29663/milestone-rnzaf-nh90?page=1&scrollTo=300619

Edited December 22, 2021 by dcrfan

[Bandsaw Steve]

34 minutes ago, dcrfan said:

The first RNZAF NH-90 just reacted 2000 hrs flying hours the highest in the world and number two is apparently close behind.  https://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/29663/milestone-rnzaf-nh90?page=1&scrollTo=300619

Thanks! An interesting discussion. One gets the impression that the RNZAF is getting along OK with their fleet. Still, I guess that’s impression they are trying to promote so the reality could be different. Can’t help but think a couple of Ex Aussie airframes might come across the Tasman sea.

[wellsprop]

On 11/12/2021 at 09:46, upnorth said:

Nothing wrong with the Blackhawk.

 

It's clearly one of those aircraft like the Huey or C-130 Hercules, It's so adaptable that's there's practically no stopping it.

 

A few years ago, Slovakia replaced their Mi-17 fleet with Blackhawks and are quite happy so far.

 

The attraction of the blackhawk is its low price, not its capability.

 

Similarly with the Huey and Hercules. The Huey is being replaced in US service by the Boeing MH139.

 

They are all old designs that have since been retrofitted with slightly more modern systems - but there is still a large capability gap between these older aircraft and new designs.

 

On 11/12/2021 at 10:02, Whitewolf said:

The UK is looking to replace its Pumas, hopefully with Blackhawks......it makes sense to use a proven design in service with multiple countries in multiple forms!

 

By that logic, the Harrier FA2 should have been replaced by new build Harrier FRS1s.

[Slater]

The USAF's geriatric UH-1N's are being replaced by the MH-139. The Blackhawk's eventual replacement is projected to be the "Future Long Range Assault Aircraft" - prototypes of which are currently flying. But don't hold your breath on that one.

[wellsprop]

20 minutes ago, Slater said:

The USAF's geriatric UH-1N's are being replaced by the MH-139. The Blackhawk's eventual replacement is projected to be the "Future Long Range Assault Aircraft" - prototypes of which are currently flying. But don't hold your breath on that one.

 

Certainly the Black Hawks days (in US service) appear numbered. But clearly it is a very sound option for anyone after a cheap helicopter in a short time.

 

I wonder if the US is doing a foreign military sale to Australia?

[Whitewolf]

1 hour ago, wellsprop said:

 

The attraction of the blackhawk is its low price, not its capability.

 

Similarly with the Huey and Hercules. The Huey is being replaced in US service by the Boeing MH139.

 

They are all old designs that have since been retrofitted with slightly more modern systems - but there is still a large capability gap between these older aircraft and new designs.

 

 

By that logic, the Harrier FA2 should have been replaced by new build Harrier FRS1s.

The only way that could be logical was if the Puma offered capabilities the Blackhawk doesn't.....The FA2s were rebuilt FRS1s incorporating major improvements making it a vastly superior aircraft

[Shane]

17 hours ago, dcrfan said:

The first RNZAF NH-90 just reacted 2000 hrs flying hours the highest in the world and number two is apparently close behind.  https://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/29663/milestone-rnzaf-nh90?page=1&scrollTo=300619

This is an indication of something the RNZAF knew when the NH90 was bought...political penny pinching led to buying  fewer airframes than needed. Consequently the fleet is being worked very hard.

 

Shane

[GMK]

13 hours ago, wellsprop said:

 

Certainly the Black Hawks days (in US service) appear numbered. But clearly it is a very sound option for anyone after a cheap helicopter in a short time.

 

I wonder if the US is doing a foreign military sale to Australia?

Yes, the Blackhawks are being acquired via FMS.

 

On 12/21/2021 at 5:06 PM, Bandsaw Steve said:

Thanks! An interesting discussion. One gets the impression that the RNZAF is getting along OK with their fleet. Still, I guess that’s impression they are trying to promote so the reality could be different. Can’t help but think a couple of Ex Aussie airframes might come across the Tasman sea.

 

It’s a bit concerning that a helicopter with an  overall fleet size of ~440 aircraft who’s first production example flew in 2006 (delivered to Germany) has only now *just* had an airframe crack 2,000 flight hours. Speaks ill of availability & spares. 
 

 

[Bandsaw Steve]

54 minutes ago, GMK said:

 

 

It’s a bit concerning that a helicopter with an  overall fleet size of ~440 aircraft who’s first production example flew in 2006 (delivered to Germany) has only now *just* had an airframe crack 2,000 flight hours. Speaks ill of availability & spares. 
 

 

TBH, I don’t really know what the expected rate of hour accumulation per annum would be, but yes; it does seem a little slower than I would have guessed.

 

 

 

[wellsprop]

2 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

TBH, I don’t really know what the expected rate of hour accumulation per annum would be, but yes; it does seem a little slower than I would have guessed.

 

 

 

 

The UK operates 30 Merlin in the ASW role and 25 (ish) in the cargo/transport role https://www.navylookout.com/the-royal-navys-merlin-helicopter-fleet-bearing-a-heavy-load/. The fleet of 55 aircraft has racked up 200,000 flying hours from 1997 until 2019 https://www.helis.com/database/news/royal-navy-merlin-hours-200k/?noamp=1

 

They are flying about 8000 hours per year across the Merlin aircraft, so about 160 hours per year, per aircraft https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/827297/Military_flying_hours_by_fleet_FY2018-19.pdf

 

Given that the NZ NH90s have been in service since 2015, 2000 hours is pretty good going in 6 years. However, it does make me wonder why the operators who have had them since the late 2000's haven't managed to get to 2000 hours - typically the Germans don't fly their aircraft much anyway, but that does seem strange they have so few hours.

 

100000 hours of service across a 400+ strong fleet in 10 years doesn't seem fantastic, especially when the Merlin fleet, of fewer than 60, aircraft reached 200,000 in (in twice that time, of course).

http://www.nhindustries.com/website/en/press/100-000-FLIGHT-HOURS-FOR-THE-NH90-FLEETS_4.html

 

Why am I comparing the NH90 to the Merlin? Both projects were pan-European ventures originating in the 1980s - albeit the Merlin is a much larger aircraft. The EH101 project started a few years earlier and got into service almost a decade earlier

[Slater]

Looks like Spain is on board with Tiger III:

 

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/defence/latest/spain-approves-tiger-iii-upgrade

[exdraken]

5 hours ago, Slater said:

Looks like Spain is on board with Tiger III:

 

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/defence/latest/spain-approves-tiger-iii-upgrade

good news for the program I guess! and recipient armies!

[Sierra Mike Sierra]

On 13/12/2021 at 12:31, Blimpyboy said:

Ageing equipment that breaks down and has high maintenance costs is a bad enough look. Expensive state-of-the-art equipment unsuitable for the task for which it was bought is, in many ways, even worse.”

The same lines could be found in German newspapers some years ago. On one occasion the commander of the airborne troops was quoted as saying something like: "Avoid using the NH-90 whenever possible". But over time it seems readiness and MBF has greatly improved and some of the weaknesses identified by the people who have to fly with them were overcome. Yet, still a costly asset compared to the Black Hawk.

[Slater]

Depending how future budgets and competition go, this might be the Blackhawk's replacement. Rotor blades and airframe are largely (if not fully) composite.

 

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/flraa-defiant-x.html

 

 

This is the other option. If this was Las Vegas I'm not sure which one I'd put my money on:

 

https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-v-280

Edited December 22, 2021 by Slater