Halifax propellers

[Plastic_parts]

Hi guys, just a quick question if I may? What propellers did Halifax “Friday 13th” use? I’ve got the old airfix kit on the bench but I’ve destroyed on of the props and desperately need a replacement. Can anyone tell me what type of prop was used and where I might get one?

cheers yall

mike

[Black Knight]

afair they were the same as Airfix had on their Sunderland kit

Using the Sunderland props on the Halifax kit was one of the suggested modifications 

And the same prop was used on the Savoia Marchetti SM79

 

I'm not 100% sure but I think the same prop was used on the Beaufighter

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/SBS72032?result-token=efLWC

[treker_ed]

According to the Haynes Manual - Handley Page Halifax, Mk III Halifax used De Havilland 3 bladed props! That's all it says about them! 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

As of January 1944 the propeller type being made for the Halifax III/VI was the De Havilland 3 blade Hydromatic 55/18

Beaufighter, the 55/14

Sunderland, the De Havilland 3 blade rack DR2/345/2

The Halifax II and V, Rotol Hydraulic propellers, 3 and 4 blades.

 

Most Mosquitoes were receiving Hamilton Standard.

 

As of January 1945 the propeller types being made for the Halifax III/VI/VII/VIII were the De Havilland 3 blade Hydromatic 55/18 and 55/19

Beaufighter, the 55/12 and 55/14

Sunderland, the 5/46

The Halifax II and V, Rotol Hydraulic propeller 4 blade R7/4b5/4

 

Most Mosquitoes were receiving/had received Hamilton Standard, A5/126, 146, 147, 160, 163, 164, 165.

[AWFK10]

There are replacement Beaufighter props available that look to be close enough for government work:

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/SBS72032?result-token=vFYPs

http://centralblue.williamsfoundation.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/4160519.jpg

[72modeler]

Is it just me, or  do very few sites that publish aircraft specs also include the prop diameter? Most often given is the prop manufacturer, but seldom the diameter. For we modelers, this is a very important and useful bit of reference information! OK, rant over- now back to the topic at hand. Regarding the post concerning Beaufighter props as being good substitutes for them DH props fitted to them and the Halifax Mk III, I was able to find the DH Beau props were 12' 9" in diameter, but other than the Rotol Halifax props, which were listed as being 12' in diameter, I was unable to find anything on Halifax DH props. Is this spec included in the Haynes manual, which I do not have? If somebody has this information, I know I would be interested in knowing it, as I have a bunch of spare Beaufighter props from various kits in my spare parts inventory that could be used on a Mk III Halibag!

Mike

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

13 hours ago, AWFK10 said:

There are replacement Beaufighter props available that look to be close enough for government work:

Just for the record, the original WWII meaning of "Good enough for government work" was a compliment, as industry adapted to the higher quality demanded versus normal standards, the meaning was reworked post war.

 

Also unless the mark III engine mountings were moved further apart, including from the fuselage, it would be surprising if longer propeller blades were fitted versus the mark II.

[JWM]

The code (like 55/18 or 55/14) usually mean something, perhaps on diameter.  Fast googling reveal that:

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/3846392-looking-to-id-a-de-havilland-propeller-blade

Regards

J-W

 

[Graham Boak]

2 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Just for the record, the original WWII meaning of "Good enough for government work" was a compliment, as industry adapted to the higher quality demanded versus normal standards, the meaning was reworked post war.

 

Also unless the mark III engine mountings were moved further apart, including from the fuselage, it would be surprising if longer propeller blades were fitted versus the mark II.

 

It is difficult for me to understand the logic of the change: work done for government is required to meet detailed specifications, as opposed to the "any old rubbish" foisted off on the general population.  Hence the problem recently encountered in the Covid epidemic, when the flurry of providers of PPE found their offerings rejected.

 

The Halifax engine mountings were not moved outboard for the Mk.III.  This is possibly because the original mounting position was for the Vultures on the HP.56, with its larger propellers.  so redesigning the entire centre section would have lost too much time.  I believe, but cannot confirm, that the Halifax Mk.III propellers were 12ft 9in.  I entirely agree that the matter of propellers, and the changes to these during production, is rarely properly discussed.  Perhaps this is because they come from external suppliers, and similar discussions could be carried out on undercarriages, tyres, and various equipments lacking the romance of airframes, engines, and weaponry.

[dogsbody]

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Plastic_parts]

Wow, lots of interesting stuff there guys thank you one and all…gone see if I can track down a couple of said props 😊

[SafetyDad]

Puts head above parapet...

I don't know much detail about Halifax variants, but I seem to recall reading that some Halifaxes used a mix of 3 and 4 bladers on the same airframe? Actually I think it was a single 4 blader on an outboard engine to avoid airframe vibration? That said, I can't recall seeing any pics of this novel arrangement.

Did this happen? 

 

SD

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

As noted in the listing there were 3 and 4 blade propellers being made for the Merlin Halifax.  The book Halifax at War by Brian J Rapier has a photograph of a Halifax in a hangar with all engines fitted with 4 bladed propellers, the caption says "Four bladed propellers were found to add another thousand feet to the service ceiling of the Halifax, and to improve the rate of climb at high altitude.  They were also beneficial to mark 5 aircraft operating with Coastal Command on long endurance flights."  No information about any flying with a mixture of 3 and 4 bladed propellers.

[Graham Boak]

You will see OCU/HCU Halifaxes with 3 inboard and four outboard.  I think that this was to improve the power on tired engines, with an insufficiency of the 4-bladers for all types.  I don't know what proportion of these aircraft were so fitted.  The 4-blades are also seen on the SOE aircraft, at least on those late enough to have received them on very late production airframes - specifically the LPTB aircraft.   I think they are also seen on the glider tugs in late 1944.

[dogsbody]

4x4-blades:

 

 

 

 

 

3&4-blades:

 

 

 

I thought I had one or two more photos of the 3/4 mix, but I can't find them now. I'll have to wade through my Halifax references to see.

 

 

 

 

Chris

[72modeler]

21 hours ago, dogsbody said:

I thought I had one or two more photos of the 3/4 mix, but I can't find them now.

 

Chris,

IIRC I have seen some photos of  GR's with the 3 and 4 blade prop mix; I remember seeing them in one of the Air Enthusiast  Quarterly issues on the Halifax; I have them indexed, so I will get up to the archives and let you know which volume. (I have every one, from No, 1 to No. 131!)

Mike

 

BTW- great Halifax photos you posted- they sure look nasty with those 4-blade Rotols!

Edited December 13, 2021 by 72modeler
corrected text

[V Line]

Based on my research, I believe the Halifax holds the title of ‘British Wartime Aircraft with Largest Number of Specified Propeller Types.’

 

Setting out all the detail out would be a major exercise. As an alternative, I hope the following points are of use.

 

As at March 1943 there were 24 specified Rotol types. I haven’t totalled the number to 1945.

 

I do not  have a direct date comparison for dH types, but in total up to 1945 there were 7 or so specified propeller types for this aircraft.

 

I have blade listings for both Rotol and dH but not yet totalled.

 

It appears that up to 1943, Rotol propellers were used exclusively with the Merlin X, XX and 20 engines. Alternative engine variants had dH.

 

Rotol prop diameters ranged, 12ft, 12ft 6ins, 12ft 9ins and 13ft. The first Rotol Halifax blades were magnesium. The remainder wood, with various different finishes.

According to my information all Halifax dH props were 13ft radius.

 

The Halifax 4 blade props were Rotol ‘B’ types, which were flight tested in the Autumn of 1943.The documents that I have read indicate that the production of same was seen as a priority by M.A.P.

 

There were two ‘B’ variants, being of 13ft and 12ft 6ins diameter (Other props may have been used on later variants).

 

On the matter of the props used on ‘Friday the 13th’, these were dH hydromatics and thus of 13ft diameter.

The blade drawing number was probably P4551175A-17 or P4551169A-21.

 

The Beaufighter dH props were (according to my notes) all of 12ft 9ins diameter and thus of lesser radius than the Halifax dH types.

 

This in itself would be an issue for modellers in using Beaufighter props on a Halifax kit. Technically speaking, the closest blade would be the P4551778A-17 used with aircraft fitted with Herculese VI and XVII engines.

 

As to whether or not there are kit or aftermarket parts which would approximate to these designs, that would be something for the modeller to determine.

[dogsbody]

2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

 

Chris,

IIRC I have seen some photos of  GR's with the 3 and 4 blade prop mix; I remember seeing them in one of the Air Enthusiast  Quarterly issues on the Halifax; I have them indexed, so I will get up to the archives and let you know which volume. (I have every one, from No, 1 to No. 116!)

Mike

 

BTW- great Halifax photos you posted- they sure look nasty with those 4-blade Rotols!

 

Ooh! That may be where I saw it. I do have a stack of older Air Enthusiast about two feet tall. I'll go through my contents list and have a look.

 

I also have these reference books:

 

 

 

 

Chris

[72modeler]

1 hour ago, dogsbody said:

 

Ooh! That may be where I saw it. I do have a stack of older Air Enthusiast about two feet tall. I'll go through my contents list and have a look.

 

I also have these reference books:

 

 

 

 

Chris

AE number 15 and 121 covered the Halifax, with No. 121 being a camouflage and markings article, with color profiles and 3-view drawings. Both of them have a photo of a GR with 4-blade props on the outboard engines. I've got five of the eight Halifax references you posted, so I guess I am pretty lucky! One I do have  is Halifax at War by Bowyer.

Mike

[Graham Boak]

There is also the best of all, ,the most recent.  Ken Merrick's Handley Page Halifax, From Hell to Victory and Beyond.   His earlier work (as above) existed in two slightly different editions, differing mainly (IIRC) in the chapter on civil aircraft. 

 

There  are elderly plans from MAP (as was) by Merrick for the Mk.III, and plans for the Merlin version from Aerodata. (possibly Richard Grainger, or Arthur x - my apologies here).  The latter was particularly welcome with regard to the Matchbox Halifax, if that is what it was.

[canberra kid]

I've found these if it helps?

 

[V Line]

1 hour ago, canberra kid said:

I've found these if it helps?

 

That's a great photo(saved!).Does it relate to the page extract?

 

The P.X500 number shown on the page extract is the hub assembly designation, denoting in this case a hydromatic 3-blader with a Number 5 blade. The complete propeller installation i.e. including the blade would be identified by the M.A.P. designation e.g.55/18. 

[brewerjerry]

Hi

     As we are drifting slightly to merlin halifax props 

  from AP 1719E  halifax V 

 

rotol props three dia sizes 

    12ft 0 in 

    12ft 9 in

    13 ft 0 in

 

    are quoted in it

 

       cheers

          jerry

[canberra kid]

21 hours ago, V Line said:

That's a great photo(saved!).Does it relate to the page extract?

 

The P.X500 number shown on the page extract is the hub assembly designation, denoting in this case a hydromatic 3-blader with a Number 5 blade. The complete propeller installation i.e. including the blade would be identified by the M.A.P. designation e.g.55/18. 

The photo is of NZ898 in final assembly at Samlesbury, the page is from the Halifax III AP, book one.

 

John

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Ministry of Aircraft Production, Monthly Statistical Bulletin which starts in March 1942, Halifax propeller systems.  Note how the data presented changed over time.  This format follows that of the previous Mosquito propeller report.
 
March 1942
The propeller blade deliveries table starts in January 1941, wooden blades start in November 1941.  Metal blade forgings are from De Havilland and Rotol, with De Havilland dominating the output. Propeller for Halifax is the Hydraulic Rotol 3 blade including the constant speed unit.
 
Repaired propellers are categorised as Fixed Pitch Wooden, Fixed Pitch Metal, Two Pitch, Constant Speed Cam, Constant Speed Hydraulic De Havilland, Constant Speed Hydraulic Rotol, Constant Speed Electric (but none until March 1942), American two pitch, American Cam, American Hydraulic, American Electric, first US propeller repairs in July 1941.
 
April 1942,
Blade deliveries table now has factory information, De Havilland Lostok producing in January 1941, Stag Lane began production in July 1941, Wooden blades by Rotol.  Blade forgings, De Havilland are Dural, Rotol are Dural (starting February 1941) and Magnesium, Fairey fixed pitch Dural from January 1941. Thrust bearing (blade sets), De Havilland and Rotol from January 1942, Wooden blade root adaptor production begins in November 1941.
 
Hub forging and Weldings, De Havilland Cam Spiders and Cam Barrels, Hydromatic Spiders and Hydromatic Barrels from January 1941.  Rotol Hydraulic 3 blade forgings from January 1941, Weldings from December 1941, Hydraulic 4 blade, 198 forgings produced to end February 1942, 58 Weldings in March, Electric forgings from April 1941.

Repairs now amalgamate the British Two Pitch and Constant Speed Cam figures, plus the American Two Pitch and Cam figures.
 
August 1942,
Propeller for Halifax II is the Hydraulc Rotol 3 blade including the constant speed unit. (mark number given for first time.)
Rotol ceases Magnesium blade forging production.
Barrel Set delivery figures recalculated, previously they were unmatched "front" and "rear" barrels.  USA 3 blade hydraulic forgings have been in figures since January 1942, broken out as a note to the table for the first time in August.
 
September 1942
Propeller for Halifax II is the Hydraulic Rotol 3 blade including the constant speed unit.

Table for Propeller stocks at Aircraft Contractors or awaiting repairs added.  Rotol Hydraulic for Halifax I, II, V, 494 at contractors, 41 under or awaiting repairs.

Table for Constant Speed Unit stocks at Aircraft Contractors or awaiting repairs added.

Table for New Propeller production by types added, from June 1941, Fixed Pitch Wood, Fixed Pitch Metal, Constant Speed Cam, Constant Speed Hydraulic De Havilland, Constant Speed Hydraulic Rotol 3 Blade, Constant Speed Hydraulic Rotol 4 Blade (from November 1941), Constant Speed Electric.
 
Table for New Propeller production by firms added, from May 1941, firms are De Havilland Stag Lane, De Havilland Lostock, Rotol No.1 Shadow (production from July 1942), Fairy (production from June 1941), Hordern Richmond (production from June 1941), Bath Aircraft (production August 1941 to April 1942, then a pause until October), Airscrew Company (production from June 1941),
 
Table for New CSU production by firms added starting in May 1941, De Havilland Cam, De Havilland Hydromatic, Rotol 3 Blade, Rotol 4 blade (from December 1941), Electric
 
Table for Assembly of USA propellers in UK added, data starting in December 1941, Stag Lane Warwick I, Lostock Lancaster I from July 1942, Stag Lane Stirling II from September 1942.
 
October 1942
Hoover added to firms producing propellers, first production in October. Bath Aircraft resumes propeller production.  Fairey fixed pitch Dural blade figures from January 1941 deleted as inaccurate. Rotol ceases Dural Blade forgings, except for a batch October/November 1943.

 

November 1942
Assembly of US propellers is now cumulative totals.

 

December 1942,

Propeller for Halifax II and V is the Hydraulc Rotol 3 blade including the constant speed unit.

New CSU production table is now De Havilland Cam, De Havilland Hydromatic small, De Havilland Hydromatic large, Rotol Hydraulic Feathering, Rotol Hydraulic Non Feathering, Electric.
 
January 1943,

Assembly for USA propellers has CSU data added.  Table for delivery of Propeller Hub Forgings and Hub Weldings dropped.

Production of New Propellers for the Month adds type/model number field, Propeller for Halifax II and V is the Hydraulc Rotol 3 blade including the constant speed unit, various types.

Production of Constant Speed Units for Month adds type field, Rotol Hydraulic for Halifax II, V type GRF/I (same as Wellington IV, Whitley and Spitfires have GRF, Beaufighter II GRF/IA)
Under repair list has Halifax, Wellington VI and Whitley figures grouped together.
Halifax III propeller Hydromatic De Havilland 3 blade model 55/18, spinner large Hydromatic De Havilland AY 6 (Same as Stirling III and various Wellington and Beaufighter marks)

 

February 1943,
Constant Speed Cam propellers redesignated Constant Speed Bracket.  Vickers Armstrong now making propellers.
 New Table, CSU production by firm, starting in December 1942, De Havilland Stag Lane, Rotol Gloucester, Rotol Worcester, Standard, Gillette, No. 1 Shadow.

 

March 1943,
CSU by firm revised, De Havilland types made by De Havilland and Standard, Rotol types made by Rotol Gloucester, Rotol Worcester, Standard, Gillette, No. 1 Shadow.

 

April 1943,
Spinner production table added.  Halifax II, V Hydraulic Rotol 3 blade.  Constant Speed Unit GRF/I now for Halifax II, V and Whitley V.

 

May 1943
Two new tables, starting from November 1942, Spinner production by type, De Havilland Bracket, De Havilland Hydromatic 3 blade, De Havilland Hydromatic 4 blade, Rotol Hydraulic 3 blade, Rotol Hydraulic 4 blade, Rotol Hydraulic 5 blade, Rotol electric.
Also New Spinner production by firm, De Havilland types from C.S.A, De Havilland types from Sankey, Rotol types from Rotol Gloucester, Rotol types from C.S.A., Rotol types from Sankey.

Constant Speed Units for Halifax II, V and Whitley V now GRF/I, GR/4  (Possibly GRF/4?)
Under repair list has Halifax, Wellington VI and Whitley figures grouped together using type GRF/I.

 

June 1943,
Standard added to firms making propellers, first production in June.

 

July 1943
New type of propeller being made, the Rack.

 

September 1943,
Halifax III, B.VI propeller Hydromatic De Havilland 3 blade model 55/18

 

October 1943,
Halifax B.II, V Hydraulic Rotol 3 blade. (appearance of aircraft designator letter)  Same in spinner and propeller stocks tables (1, B.II, V in the latter).

 

December 1943,
Halifax B.II, V now also Hydraulic Rotol 4 blade, no model given, B.II, V still "various".  Spinner Hydraulic Rotol 4 blade.

 

January 1944,
Standard ceases propeller production.
 
March 1944
Templetons is added as maker of De Havilland propeller blades, staring in January 1944, in April 1944 the report has Templetons production beginning in May 1942, previously counted under Lostock.

 

April 1944,

3 blade Rotol propeller production for Halifax ends.  Rotol Gloucester ceases CSU production.

 

May 1944,
Halifax III, B.VI propeller Hydromatic De Havilland 3 blade model 55/18, 55/19.  Shadow factory No.1 ceases CSU production.

 

June 1944,
Propeller stocks report say the Hydraulic Rotol 4 blade propellers for Halifax B.II, V are types R7/4, B5/4.

 

July 1944
Rack propeller production ceases.

 

August 1944,
Halifax III, B.VI, B.VII propeller Hydromatic De Havilland 3 blade model 55/1, 55/19.
Rotol begins production of 2 blade hydraulic constant speed propellers.  Hordern Richmond cease propeller production until December.

 

September 1944,
Bracket propeller production ceases as does CSU units for them.

 

October 1944,
Propeller stocks report say the Hydraulic Rotol 4 blade propellers for Halifax B.II, V are types R7/4B5/4, R34/4B5/4
Number 1 Shadow factory ceases propeller production.

 

November 1944,
Halifax B.II, V propeller Hydraulic Rotol 4 Blade, R7/4B5/4,
Halfax III, B.VI, C.VI, B.VII, C.VII propeller Hydromatic De Havilland 3 blade, 55/18, 55/19.

 

December 1944,
Rotol ceases 3 Blade Hydromatic constant speed propellers.

 

January 1945,
Rotol 4 blade propeller production for Halifax ceases.  Hoover ceases propeller production.

 

March 1945,
Double Acting CSU monthly production begins (20 have been built in May and 1 in October 1944)
Gillette CSU production ceases as does electric CSU production since Gillette was the sole UK maker of electric CSU.

 

April 1945,
Contra rotating propeller production begins.

 

August 1945,
De Havilland ceases propeller production for Halifaxes and AY 6 constant speed unit.  Stocks reports discontinued.

 

September 1945,
Fairey and Hordern Richmond cease propeller production.  Electric propeller production ends?  US propeller table dropped.
 
October 1945,
De Havilland 3 blade, hydraulic constant speed propeller production ends?  And De Havilland large Hydromatic CSU unit production ends?

November 1945,  End of reports.