vppelt68 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 To be continued 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlin Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 No Gripen E for Finland. /Bosse 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vppelt68 Posted December 10, 2021 Author Share Posted December 10, 2021 No, and I'm sad about it too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desert falcon Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 Good luck with that! At least Finland ordered a decent amount of aircraft, Denmark are only getting 27 of them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vppelt68 Posted December 10, 2021 Author Share Posted December 10, 2021 They cost 73,5 million euros per plane. I must admit I had never believed the F-35A:s could become that cheap. V-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 Not sure what is all in the package. In Switzerland, they did some tricks that we would consider as "nasty", like not considering the exptected inflation between time of order and time of payment, replacing real training sorties by simulator sorties etc. Alex 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vppelt68 Posted December 10, 2021 Author Share Posted December 10, 2021 It's 73,5 millions per airplane. Thus 64 Block 4 F-35A:s cost 4,704 billion euros, on top of that the missiles 755 millions; service equipment, spares, training and other related systems 2,920 billions. Total cost 8,4 billion euros. No inflation/index changes included, but the allocated budget is 10 billion euros. Weapon types included: AMRAAM, AIM-9X, SDB I and SDB II, JDAM, JSM and JASSM-ER. Sidekicks mentioned specifically and all planes will have the Norwegian drag chutes. Rafale and Eurofighter did not pass the industrial and economical requirements to reach the performance evaluation. There F-35 got 4,47 out of 5 points max; Super Hornet was number two with 3,81 points. I and sufficiently many others consider that difference significant. V-P 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 Thanks for the background info. Here, the "initially 5 billions" already turned into 6 billions francs (5.7 billions EUR)... for only 36 of them. So we pay 20% more per aircraft, all the side expenses included. Not really surprised, as our military procurement office never managed to do something right... Alex 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 Was to be expected, no? Gripen was the outsider, only slight advantage was Sweden as neighbour...probably industrial cooperation as well... The Rafale, my favorite would nit have been a very likely choice at all as long as F-35 can cover the Finnish requirements ( that was assured while writing them I'd assume, just think if specifying the need for a two-seater for example!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 (edited) I take it that nothing changed from last year's original request? https://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/Finland_20-66.pdf Edited December 10, 2021 by Slater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 hour ago, vppelt68 said: the industrial and economical requirements to reach the performance evaluation. Wonder how the F-35 did pass here? Is Finnland doing some if the production/ further development? Or is Patria going to takeover F-16V production instead Wonder how that could surpass anything Saab had offered... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 According to Lockheed Martin's press release: "The F-35 selection will deliver economic and technical advantages to Finland for decades to come. Finnish industry will have many first-of-a-kind opportunities to work directly on F-35 production and sustainment. Through indirect industrial participation projects outside of F-35 production, Lockheed Martin will build industry partnerships with Finnish companies and academic institutions that offer opportunities focused on developing and advancing security partnerships far into the future." 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vppelt68 Posted December 10, 2021 Author Share Posted December 10, 2021 10 minutes ago, exdraken said: Wonder how the F-35 did pass here? Is Finnland doing some if the production/ further development? Or is Patria going to takeover F-16V production instead Wonder how that could surpass anything Saab had offered... There'll be 400 F-35 front fuselages manufactured in Finland. We'll also get engine maintenance, probably that'll cover Norway, Denmark and some other European users too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaCee26 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 2 hours ago, exdraken said: The Rafale, my favorite would nit have been a very likely choice at all as long as F-35 can cover the Finnish requirements ( that was assured while writing them I'd assume, just think if specifying the need for a two-seater for example!) Both Rafale and Typhoon were dropped of before the performance testing based on three fixed criterias. Maybe partly as they offered less than 64 aircraft? In every performance test F-35A was better or as good as the second one. In my evaluation I suppose they based selection on which type has best plastic model kits! Cheers, AaCee 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, AaCee26 said: oth Rafale and Typhoon were dropped of before the performance testing based on three fixed criterias. Maybe partly as they offered less than 64 aircraft? Was there a fixed price requirement? Would otherwise be stupid to offer less the the customer wants... 4 minutes ago, AaCee26 said: In every performance test F-35A was better or as good as the second one. That of corse depends on these criteria! E.g add the requirement for a mud range IR missile, all but the Rafale would have had to pass. Add a Meteor type missile capability need (range wise e.g ) and the American designs would have failed currently, or add some specific recce pod capability, etc... only Rafale and Superhornet would have passed. All that is very much in the hand of the ones who write the criteria... and that is before going into details like specific aircraft performance needs.. like ease of maintenance, scramble times etc... 13 minutes ago, AaCee26 said: In my evaluation I suppose they based selection on which type has best plastic model kits! Rafale should have one here, Seconded by the SuperHornet you will need a drag Shute fairing for you Meng F-35 in 1/48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaCee26 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, exdraken said: Was there a fixed price requirement? Would otherwise be stupid to offer less the the customer wants... 10 mrd euros. 2 minutes ago, exdraken said: That of corse depends on these criteria! E.g add the requirement for a mud range IR missile, all but the Rafale would have had to pass. Add a Meteor type missile capability need (range wise e.g ) and the American designs would have failed currently, or add some specific recce pod capability, etc... only Rafale and Superhornet would have passed. All that is very much in the hand of the ones who write the criteria... and that is before going into details like specific aircraft performance needs.. like ease of maintenance, scramble times etc... Armament wass offered by the vendors based on the requirements given. And went through together before the offer was given. 4 minutes ago, exdraken said: Rafale should have one here, Seconded by the SuperHornet you will need a drag Shute fairing for you Meng F-35 in 1/48 I don't know about the 1/48 but after Gripen E Rafele has been served badly in 1/72. SUper-Hornet and Typhoon kits I'm not complaining at all. Cheers, AaCee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 If/when weapons such as the AIM-260 become available, presumably Finland would be in line to receive them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vppelt68 Posted December 10, 2021 Author Share Posted December 10, 2021 7 minutes ago, Slater said: If/when weapons such as the AIM-260 become available, presumably Finland would be in line to receive them. And BAe is already working on making the Meteor fit RAF F-35B:s. If AMRAAM:s will be retired as A2A weapons, we can add them to our NASAMS missile stocks, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesa Jussila Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 I was reading somewhere that Meteor integration should be ready -25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbit Leader Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 Cool… another colourful Grey on Grey roundel choice for all those model kits out there. Now we’ve (RAAF) just retired out last Classic Hornets for F-35’s so seems like the Finns are closely following our path. Sixty-four units also seems to be quite a large number in comparison to other similar sized nations, so seems there’s some simmering threat that the Finnish government is worried about? I’m all for stocking up one’s defence, so well done Finland. Cheers.. Dave 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 18 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said: Cool… another colourful Grey on Grey roundel choice for all those model kits out there. Now we’ve (RAAF) just retired out last Classic Hornets for F-35’s so seems like the Finns are closely following our path. Sixty-four units also seems to be quite a large number in comparison to other similar sized nations, so seems there’s some simmering threat that the Finnish government is worried about? I’m all for stocking up one’s defence, so well done Finland. Cheers.. Dave also take into account that Finland is a neutral country, not within NATO (although definitely a partner) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spruecutter96 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, vppelt68 said: I had never believed the F-35A:s could become that cheap Please tell me that this is intended ironically? How is it Finland can afford a half-decent amount and the UK cannot? With the current F-35 crash-rate, I'm wondering how long that number will actually last (yep, I know that ALL military aircraft suffer crashes, particularly when first employed...) Chris. Edited December 10, 2021 by spruecutter96 Amending some information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said: Please tell me that this is intended ironically? How is it Finland can afford a half-decent amount and the UK cannot? Chris. Black Friday Special? 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spruecutter96 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Slater said: Black Friday Special? Two-for-one and free shipping? Sounds like a great deal. Chris. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 On 12/10/2021 at 10:09 PM, spruecutter96 said: How is it Finland can afford a half-decent amount and the UK cannot? Well, there's a question. For 'can/cannot' read 'will/will not' and therein lies the answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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