Heller Spitfire LF16

[NORTHDUK]

I'm planning to revive a long-neglected build of the Heller Spitfire 16 in 1/72.  I want to make a model of one of these aircraft in post-war RAF service in overall silver.  After deciding against the Heller decals, I found a photograph on AircraftPhotos.Company that might be suitable.  Here is a link to the photograph; I hope it's all right to post links here.

 

https://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p934046062/hdcacb10#hdcacb10

 

The Spitfire in the photograph is SL569, T*KFJ of the Central Gunnery School.  It has Type D roundels and fin flashes.  The photograph is in black and white and the aircraft is seen from the port side.  Before I start to apply decals, I need to know:

 

1) How would the code letters appear on the starboard side?  Would KFJ*T be likely?

 

2) What colour was the spinner?  Comparing the tone of the spinner with the roundel and fin flash suggests, unhelpfully, that it could have been either red or blue.  The question is complicated a little by the next question.

 

3) Comparing the tones of the fuselage roundel and the fin flash shows that they appear quite different.  It almost looks as if the flash had the colours in the wrong order, the leading stripe being decidedly darker than the trailing stripe.  It could be newer paint or an effect of the light, I suppose.  Does anyone know? Either way, it doesn't help with Question 2!

 

Has anyone seen a picture of this aircraft from the starboard side or seen another from the same unit?  My references provide no useful information unfortunately.  Failing that, has anyone a reasonably clear photograph of another silver Spitfire 16 of another unit for which the colours and markings are known?  Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

 

Best wishes,

 

Gordon McLaughlin

[stever219]

CGS was a Training Command unit so its codes would start with T.  Therefore I’d expect the starboard side to read TKF*J.

 

I know of at least one Spitfire XVI with reversed fin flash colours but I wouldn’t like to hazard a guess as to whether that is the case here, but I suspect that the spinner was probably red.

[gingerbob]

Careful study of this thread- and the included links- may be helpful.  It would seem that 'ToKFJ' as in the photo is an erroneous code application?  Note that the one behind seems to have an 'F' in front of the roundel, which would appear to be more 'as expected'.

 

bob

[Jonners]

The fin flash does indeed appear to be reversed in that image, Gordon, but this might be helpful for the normal code presentation for Leconfield-based CGS Spitfires:

 

https://youtu.be/P6ek4kHLyOs

 

The usual presentation seems to have been for the 'F' to be placed ahead of the roundel on both fuselage sides, with the three remaining letters 'JW_' (the final letter being the individual aircraft identifier) aft of the roundel. F○JT_ was definitely also a CGS code, but the aircraft in the background appears the have the 'F' forward of the roundel in the usual manner.

 

That film clip is also the only reference I've seen that shows a high-back Leconfield CGS Mk16. RW396 /F○JWL is the most common kit and decal subject, probably due to a clear, frequently-published photo in which tonal comparisons with the roundel and flash suggest a red spinner.

 

Jon

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Jonners

[Graham Boak]

The best suggestion I have using these letters is FJTK.  The allocated codes for the CG were FJR, FJS, FJT ,FJU ,FJV , FJW and FJX.  The T as a prefix was for Technical Training Command, but the second two letters are not included as codes ibn Combat Codes.

[NORTHDUK]

stever219,

 

Thanks for your very prompt reply.  As Graham Boak says, F was the prefix letter for Flying Training Command and T was the prefix for Technical Training Command.  A list of codes for both of these appears in Squadron Codes 1937 - 56 by Michael Bowyer and John Rawlings (PSL, 1979).  This would make the unit code FJT and the individual aircraft letter K.  For some reason, the display of the codes on this aircraft doesn't follow this pattern although the codes on the other Spitfires in the Pathe films linked by gingerbob and Jonners do.

 

I agree with you that the spinner is probably red.

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

Best wishes,

 

Gordon McLaughlin

[NORTHDUK]

gingerbob,

 

Thanks for your reply and the attached thread.  This was a thread that I joined when I first looked into making the Heller kit with different markings.  The two Pathe films were most interesting and I thought at first that I might model either FJW*D or E.  Further study of the films, however, posed questions that I couldn't answer and I put the kit aside until I had further information.  I came across the kit in the loft recently and that prompted my current posting.  It isn't entirely clear in the films but it looks as if the wing leading edges might be painted black.  It also appears that some of the aircraft retained their cannon armament and others didn't.  The film stills weren't clear enough to tell with certainty which had and which hadn't.  The final straw was a streamlined object above the port wing of FJW*E, near the leading edge.  I thought it might be a housing for a camera but don't really know.  It appears only briefly. 

 

As far as the layout of the code letters is concerned, they seem to follow a common pattern.  On the port side, they are F*JWE but on the starboard side, they are FJW*E.  All of the aircraft that I could see reasonably clearly follow this pattern.

 

Best wishes,

 

Gordon Mclaughlin

[NORTHDUK]

Jonners,

 

Thanks for your reply and for the Pathe film clip which is very clear.  For the layout of the code letters on the fuselages of these Spitfires, could I refer you to my reply to gingerbob?  I must admit that I have watched these films many times but, until you mentioned it, I had never noticed that one of them was a high-backed version. 

 

Do you know if it is still posible to view these film clips as stills as it was when you originally sent links to them in the earlier thread to which gingerbob provided the link above?  If so, how is it done? 

 

Best wishes,

 

Gordon McLaughlin

[NORTHDUK]

Graham Boak,

 

Graham,

 

Thanks for your reply.  I agree with you that FJTK would be the actual code for SL569.  Gingerbob is right, I think, in suggesting that the code layout T*KFJ is a mistake on someone's part.  Alternatively, the code layout may have varied between sub-units (squadrons) within the school.  Without clarification of the points raised in my reply to gingerbob, I'm thinking of putting the kit back in the loft and moving on to something else!

 

Best wishes,

 

Gordon

[Jonners]

3 hours ago, NORTHDUK said:

Do you know if it is still posible to view these film clips as stills

Yes, on the British Pathé webpage for that clip, click on 'View as Stills':

 

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/stills/rocket-firing-spitfire

 

I see now what you mean about the starboard side being FJW○E etc. I had supposed that the partial view of the E was actually the F. Oops! I have a 1/48 CGS Mk16 in a box at home that I finished a few years ago as F○JWL / RW396 using the Lifelike Decals sheet. If I wasn't several hundred miles away I would have been able to dig it out and avoid passing on duff gen! Sorry!

Jon

Edited December 4, 2021 by Jonners

[NORTHDUK]

Since typing my replies last night, I have had a couple of lucky finds.  These are possible alternative schemes for the Heller kit and I'm inclined to try one of them.

 

The first is an aircraft of 17Sn which is an option in an Eduard 1/48 scale kit.  Details can be found here:

 

https://www.super-hobby.be/products/Spitfire-Mk.XVI-Bubbletop.html#gallery_start

 

The second is an aircraft of 1 (Pilots) Refresher Flying Unit.  I came across a photograph of FD*AC, which is apparently preserved in Scotland, and then found that FD*AA is a decal option in the 1/32 scale Tamiya kit.  These links should show these:

 

https://www.nms.ac.uk/explore-our-collections/stories/science-and-technology/spitfire/

 

and:

 

https://www.largescaleplanes.com/articles/article.php?aid=2987

 

At the moment, I'm inclined to go for FD*AC but I'll be doing a further Google search to see if I can find any other units before I put paint to plastic!

 

In the meanwhile, my thanks to everyone who replied to my original post.  If anyone knows of other possible marking schemes, I'd be grateful for the details.

 

Best wishes,

 

Gordon McLaughlin

 

 

[rossm]

TE452 7B.A of A Flight, 5 Sqdn - photo in RAF Chivenor in the Britain in Old Photos series.

 

It isn't the sharpest photo but I'd say it has exhaust glare shields, something I've not seen on a Spitfire before.

[NORTHDUK]

rossm,

 

Thanks for your reply.  I'll chase that one up, especially if it has the exhaust glare shields.  I can't remember seeing them on a Spitfire either.

 

Since my last posting, I've come across this site:

 

https://www.raf-in-combat.com/downloads/supermarine-spitfire-lf-16-post-1947-47-photos/

 

There are some very interesting photographs, well worth seeing.

 

Best wishes,

 

Gordon McLaughlin