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Black Cat Models River Class Frigate


Faraway

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Hi, I think you mean  Starling Models! Looking through various references for White Ensign and Sovereign Paints, thje early Semtex was a grey colour, and that the WE paint was a good match.

 

Hope that helps, Dave

1 hour ago, Faraway said:

Can anyone help with this colour ?

SEMTEX EARLY.

I can't find it anywhere. Sorry to bother you four, but you are oracles.

:worthy: @robgizlu @beefy66 @Adm Lord De Univers @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies

Or is it figment of Black Cats imagination

p?i=5af89956fb1847be839393a9c255701e

 

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1 hour ago, davepb said:

I think you mean  Starling Models

No, it's definitely Black Cat Models. In fact I bought it direct from them in France. 

I think you are probably right about the colour, a grey of some shade.

p?i=3d1829ae83a82c246faa41ee7132e66a

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Evening Jon, thanks for the compliment, but I'd follow whatever @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies says on this. However, from memory of a previous sleuth I did find reference to a "light 'wood' colour". The above colour matches the Synder and Short chips too (RN, WW2, set 1). All I know is that the colour of semtex varied, as per the inimitable Hood website, and I believe there was a light buff coloured semtex variant, but I cannot now find the references to it.

 

David

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Jon - Semtex or Cemtex is a nightmare.

Here's what I wrote in the the HMS Griffin Blog......

 

"It still seems astonishing that we don't truly have an appreciation of the exact colours to this day and that photographic evidence is not available

There are certain givens..... There were several shades.  

Here's what Ough had to say oon the subject and he was clearly an interested observer and most importantly a modeller

 

"Large areas of the decks, when they are not planked are covered in "Semtex" which is a composition trowelled onto the plates and confined at the edges by small beadings of steel welded on.  When dry it presents a  matt surface, not very slippery and of almost the same appearance as dry asphalt.  It is usually given a coat of paint, either dark green or dark blue, which looks rather handsome, and often, round the base of the whole superstructure where it joins the deck, a wide band is painted about 9in high, of a different colour, dark grey or dark blue, called the "kicking strip", as shown in (16).  If the semtex is green, this is usually blue.  if blue it is usually grey.  In the Warspite in one commission it was dark red which looked very fine in contrast to the planking.  It appears thatthat the colour arrangements depend on the decision of the ships officers."

 

Another first hand account has been recorded on the web and is available and I've copied this from a thread on "The Miniatures page" which I'll very happily remove if anyone protests

 

Seaman Gunner George Mack
Personal recollection
HMS INTREPID 1937

As soon as we arrived in Chatham our chums began to arrive aboard to see what the new ship looked like, and to renew old acquaintances.
From the jetty we looked very smart in our gleaming light grey Med Fleet colours, against the dark grey of the Home Fleet ships that were in the yard with us, but when they stepped aboard things were not so smart. We had managed to sweep up, but the decks looked filthy as they were covered in a new paste-like surface, instead of the brown corticene, held down with shiny brass strips, as on other ships.
By Sunday the POs and leading seaman had gone round other ships to borrow a supply of cleaning materials and we set to with a will to clean the upper deck. To our disgust, nothing had the slightest effect, in spite of all the skills that years of hard-won experience lavished on it! When we eventually met the rest of the flotilla we found they had been equally unsuccessful; the only real difference between the ships was that three had dirty brown decks, three dirty blue decks and three had dirty grey decks!

This curse held over us for about six months, until suddenly we noticed that the IMPULSIVE had cleaner decks than the rest of us. In spite of her trying to keep the secret formula to herself, we soon noticed that she was washing her decks with a salt water hose, and the problem was solved. Salt water and nothing else. We now had the problem of a dirty ship's side! In all fairness however this was one of the best things that happened to destroyers. For it meant there was a really safe foothold in all weathers. Before this the decks were very slippery, and to give extra grip at sea, coconut matting was laid round the guns and along the iron deck, but the first seas coming aboard would rip the lashings, and it was a constant battle to keep it securely lashed down. Another snag about 'Semtex' was that it wore through the soles of shoes at an alarming rate, as it was like walking on sandpaper.

 

I think the fact that Norman Ough asserts it was painted rather deflates extended discusson about the true colours available.  I'm conscious that Jamie has a compelling pic showing a light "duck-egg" green which is yet a further contender.

 

It's likely that in the absence of high quality colour photographs we shall never know, so "Dry asphalt" and dark green remain safe options.  Which begs the question....what colour Exactly is "dry ashphalt"?    Doh!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Stop it

 

I've opted for Dry asphalt with some Vallejo mixes"

 

Bottom line - there were likely seeral different colours, possibly from different companies.  Jamie has a compelling pic that shows the Duck Egg green colour and it's tempting to feel that might be a candidate here.  Ben from BCM is a super lad but until I emailed him he was going to release the  "Landing Craft Infantry (Large) with a colour scheme that failed to match documentary evidence.  To his credit he changed it instantly.  

Semtex in the absence of firm photographic evidence is going to be a "best guess" scenario.

FWIW an additional confiunder is that CB3098(R) May 1943 "The Camouflage of ships at sea" specifies B30 for a Western approaches scheme.

 

Over to Jamie......

Rob

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Well Jon you have opened a right can of  :worms:

 

As the good gentlemen above have said @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies is the main man for this job that is who I go to for help but looking at some photos you can hardly tell the difference in various ships.

 

IMHO looking at some of @Mike McCabe work on his builds I would go for a light Buff colour and add a thin wash of a darker shade around the base of the structures.

 

HTH

 

Stay Safe

beefy

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Dear Friends,

what do you think about covering all horizontal surfaces with semtex? Including all gun platforms and bridge and so on? That's how both manufacturers (Black Cat Models and Starling) suggested in instructions . In my personal amateur's opinion it is rather unlikely. 

Regards,

Michał

PS. Jon ( @Faraway ), if you are preparing for building frigate and looking for photos, informations and so on, let me know by PM. I have some interesting stuff and if you want I'll send it to you.

Edited by socjo1
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@robgizlu got to love these contemporary accounts, absolutely fascinating. 👍 @beefy66 me ? Can of worms ? Whatever do you mean ? @socjo1 I totally agree, main deck surfaces maybe. But all horizontal surfaces ? 
Over to the maestro @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies ?

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17 hours ago, socjo1 said:

Dear Friends,

what do you think about covering all horizontal surfaces with semtex? Including all gun platforms and bridge and so on? That's how both manufacturers (Black Cat Models and Starling) suggested in instructions . In my personal amateur's opinion it is rather unlikely. 

Regards,

Michał

PS. Jon ( @Faraway ), if you are preparing for building frigate and looking for photos, informations and so on, let me know by PM. I have some interesting stuff and if you want I'll send it to you.

Thanks for the offer. I’ll send you a PM

Jon

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21 hours ago, Faraway said:

No, it's definitely Black Cat Models. In fact I bought it direct from them in France. 

I think you are probably right about the colour, a grey of some shade.

p?i=3d1829ae83a82c246faa41ee7132e66a

Sorry about that! I only knew of the Starling Models Kit.

Cheers, Dave

 

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5 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

Sorry I've had problems today.

 

This is late war Semtex - a pale greenish colour.

https://village.photos/images/user/483a5850-3d62-4900-8176-6062170ac842/0cfbfa64-fc16-4ad5-97dd-ca95a6d31144.jpg

Absolutely no apologies necessary, given your electrical supply and weather problems, it’s me who should apologise to you, for bothering you with such a trivial problem. Have you any colours in your range that might fit, I was thinking NARN 26 ?

Jon

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3 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

Sorry I've had problems today.

 

This is late war Semtex - a pale greenish colour.

https://village.photos/images/user/483a5850-3d62-4900-8176-6062170ac842/0cfbfa64-fc16-4ad5-97dd-ca95a6d31144.jpg

Whilst at one point some time ago I too thought that was late war Semtex, I now confident that it was not.  Semtex required edging strips to hold it in place when it was initially laid and spread in its molten/plastic state and to protect its edges once set. There are no edging strips. Also if it was Semtex you would not have tread strips for grip. Nor was it possible to lay Semtex over treadstrips (they are the same colour as the rest of the platform) again because it was laid and spread in a molten/plastic state (later hardening). 

 

I suspect that in reality this is some variety of non-slip deck paint. Given that the ship is Canadian (Prince Robert), and Canadian converted, the photo is absolutely no guide whatsoever to the colour of any British deck paint.

 

I am pretty confident that wartime Semtex as supplied to the RN was grey (only) though the tone might have varied a bit as the composition varied over the war years.

 

Wartime Semtex SX 135 was not to be overpainted. (If you over-painted it you reduced/eliminated its non-slip properties.)

 

The one set of River Class frigate As Fitteds I have seen (some time ago) showed Semtex on the forecastle deck (the deck which ran from the bow all the way to the aft 4" gun) but not under the boats nor up towards the bow from a line across the deck roughly level with the windlass all the way to the bow itself, this area being steel with treadstrips. The Upper Deck (ie the deck the depth charge rails and throwers were on towards the stern) was a bit problematic to decypher showing steel and treadstrips at the stern and perhaps as far forward as about 80% of the way to the aftmost extremity of the forecastle deck where there was then a dotted line across the deck. This dotted line being unannotated it was unclear if this indicated Semtex forward of this line. (On the forecastle deck dotted lines seemed to be used to indicate the extremities of the Semtex there.) Nothing was noted for the signal deck but I suspect that might have received Semtex. All these details could well have varied across the Class so one would really need to see the As Fitteds for the ship you are modelling to be sure.

 

 

Edited by dickrd
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1 hour ago, dickrd said:

I am pretty confident that wartime Semtex as supplied to the RN was grey (only) though the tone might have varied a bit as the composition varied over the war years.

@beefy66 your, well mine actually, can of worms is starting to wriggle. 
Reading the contemporary accounts from @robgizlu and the knowledge of @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies, I’m undecided. I’ve read several accounts from WW2 naval personnel and it seems ships were never quite the colour they should have been. What with weather conditions, paint supply problems and individual commanding officers taste, I doubt we’ll ever really know. 
We need more, unrestored, colour photo’s. But I guess the chaps on board had other things to worry about. But keep the comments coming chaps, no knowledge is ever wasted.

Also, I emailed Ben at Black Cat Models, thinking he produced the kit, so he should know what the colour is. And he sent me the following pictures, so at least the colour did exist. Or there are certainly representations of it.

I will continue to investigate.

The truth is out there. 👽

Jon

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p?i=eba2c28f1008a0328c9dc757c5f9e8ae

p?i=16f80459a2b82fb1f79508e52d49e3ac

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42 minutes ago, Faraway said:


Reading the contemporary accounts from @robgizlu ....

Just to clarify, I said “wartime Semtex as supplied to the RN was grey”. I originally posted Mack’s recollections of the colour of the I Class decks on the Modelwarships.com forum 11 years ago. Mack was referring to 1937. It was a peacetime trial of 3 different manufacturers’ products which probably accounts for the 3 different colours then. Only one of the 3 products being trialled was Semtex.

 

A wartime ship’s captain would have had no discretion over the colour his Semtex was supplied in. The ingredients were factory produced.

 

Early war Semtex was grey - I have a copy of a document saying so (as does Jamie).

 

 (I recommend that you ignore the three RN colour references you have posted. They are all wrong in various ways as we have shown in our research which Jamie has written up in various papers which he has posted on his website.)

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8 minutes ago, dickrd said:

Early war Semtex was grey

@dickrd I don’t doubt what you say, but how do you know all this ? I’ve always been interested in people’s background.
Well, that’s sorted then. 👍
But what shade ? 🤔

Jon

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Faraway said:

Well, that’s sorted then. 👍
But what shade ? 🤔

Jon

 

 

 

A good guide to late war Semtex's tone might be the tone of grey Norman Ough modelled it on his Barfleur: "The Life and Ship Models of Norman Ough", colour spread, pages XIV-XV. This is very similar to the tone of grey to be seen on the Hawthorn Leslie builders model of Alamein/Armada/Agincourt/Solebay/Saintes and on a contemporary model of Armada in the State Museum of Victoria, Australia. (Its the sort of colour I associate with asphalt.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by dickrd
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1 hour ago, Faraway said:

@dickrd I don’t doubt what you say, but how do you know all this ?

 

 

 

Extensive research, over the past nearly two decades now, in the documents (and, where relevant, contemporary models) to be found in: The Admiralty Library (Portsmouth), The Royal Navy Museum Library (Portsmouth), The National Archives (Kew), The National Maritime Museum (Greenwich), The Brass Foundry (Woolwich), the Discovery Museum (Newcastle), No.1 Smithery at Chatham Historic Dockyard and, thanks to friendly and generous helpers/fellow enthusiasts overseas, documents in the National Archives of Australia (Canberra) and Library and Archives Canada (Ottawa) plus what can be found online in the various collections of other museums worldwide. 

Edited by dickrd
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54 minutes ago, dickrd said:

 

A good guide to late war Semtex's tone might be the tone of grey Norman Ough modelled it on his Barfleur: "The Life and Ship Models of Norman Ough", colour spread, pages XIV-XV. This is very similar to the tone of grey to be seen on the Hawthorn Leslie builders model of Alamein/Armada/Agincourt/Solebay/Saintes and on a contemporary model of Armada in the State Museum of Victoria, Australia. (Its the sort of colour I associate with asphalt.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My most used book - every Royal Navy modeller should have one.

Thanks for this Dick - invaluable as ever :clap2:

FWIW - I reckon it's a very close match to Vallejo Model Air 71.055 Black Grey  (Beware 71.056 is also labelled Black Grey but is blacker)

Rob

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32 minutes ago, robgizlu said:

 

My most used book - every Royal Navy modeller should have one.

Thanks for this Dick - invaluable as ever :clap2:

FWIW - I reckon it's a very close match to Vallejo Model Air 71.055 Black Grey  (Beware 71.056 is also labelled Black Grey but is blacker)

Rob

 

The early war document (a Semtex Company document) calls the colour then "Admiralty Grey". For various reasons I suspect that this may in practice have been BS381C #32 Dark Battleship Grey rather than 507A.

Edited by dickrd
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I have the following greys on my shelf.

Colourcoats NARN23 WW2 Dark Grey Non-slip Deck Paint

AK Interactive AK5034 507B Admiralty Medium Grey

                         AK5035 Admiralty Light Grey 

Vallejo Model Air 71.055 Black Grey

So it’s decision time, we’ll it will be when I start the build.

I think I’ll discount AK5035 as being too light.

AK5034 is lighter than 71.055 but closer to NARN23

So, I’m favouring NARN23.

What are your thoughts @dickrd ?

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My fancy is that NARN 23 would be slightly too dark.

 

In the past I always used WEM Colourcoats RN05 MS2 for Semtex. @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies would have to confirm whether or not today's Colourcoats NARN 29 is the same - it may now be a bit darker. If so I would not use it for Semtex.

 

If I was starting from scratch today I would use his NARN 50 Dark Admiralty Grey BS381C #632 as this should be the same as the old BS381C #32 (Dark Battleship Grey) used to be - it was simply renumbered and renamed by the BSI in 1948 - and this is the colour I think the Semtex Company may have been referring to as "Admiralty grey" in 1940.

 

I have only ever used Colourcoats (and decades ago before them Humbrol) paints and so have no knowledge of the other manufacturers' products you list so I cannot comment on their suitability. 

 

 

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On 02/12/2021 at 18:55, dickrd said:

Whilst at one point some time ago I too thought that was late war Semtex, I now confident that it was not.  Semtex required edging strips to hold it in place when it was initially laid and spread in its molten/plastic state and to protect its edges once set. There are no edging strips. Also if it was Semtex you would not have tread strips for grip. Nor was it possible to lay Semtex over treadstrips (they are the same colour as the rest of the platform) again because it was laid and spread in a molten/plastic state (later hardening). 

 

I suspect that in reality this is some variety of non-slip deck paint. Given that the ship is Canadian (Prince Robert), and Canadian converted, the photo is absolutely no guide whatsoever to the colour of any British deck paint.

 

I am pretty confident that wartime Semtex as supplied to the RN was grey (only) though the tone might have varied a bit as the composition varied over the war years.

 

Wartime Semtex SX 135 was not to be overpainted. (If you over-painted it you reduced/eliminated its non-slip properties.)

 

The one set of River Class frigate As Fitteds I have seen (some time ago) showed Semtex on the forecastle deck (the deck which ran from the bow all the way to the aft 4" gun) but not under the boats nor up towards the bow from a line across the deck roughly level with the windlass all the way to the bow itself, this area being steel with treadstrips. The Upper Deck (ie the deck the depth charge rails and throwers were on towards the stern) was a bit problematic to decypher showing steel and treadstrips at the stern and perhaps as far forward as about 80% of the way to the aftmost extremity of the forecastle deck where there was then a dotted line across the deck. This dotted line being unannotated it was unclear if this indicated Semtex forward of this line. (On the forecastle deck dotted lines seemed to be used to indicate the extremities of the Semtex there.) Nothing was noted for the signal deck but I suspect that might have received Semtex. All these details could well have varied across the Class so one would really need to see the As Fitteds for the ship you are modelling to be sure.

 

 

 

Everything below I posted in various posts some once a time so foregive me, friends.

In this film you can see interesting semtex (or something simlair) appereance (peeling/damaging, texture). Unfortunantely not colour!

More similair footages with very interesting details you can find in my old post:

Beside semtex, quite often some ship's areas where covered with anti-slip skids. Usually on bow, sometimes on stern and in midship around funnel. Generally it is difficult to say something "100% sure", rather it is matter of interpretation and guessing. I show various deck surfaces on River class frigates in page 2 of my topic where I build HMS Jed (I'l finish her... some day, I promise!). I painted her decks with Lifecolor paint "early semtex" but now I know it is just wrong.🤬

HTH.

Regards,

Michał.

Edited by socjo1
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