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Falklands war: AEW - or lack of.


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45 minutes ago, Pete in Lincs said:

I've recently read, Victor Boys, Vulcan Boys and Vulcan 607.

Mention was made of 51 Sqn Nimrods operating to the West of the fleet.

51 Sqn did indeed deploy Nimrod R.1 XW664 on Operation Corporate. Although their Forward Operating Base remains classified, the Sqn was reported to have flown a total of 10 missions in support of the campaign. The aircraft's primary role was SIGINT collection and analysis rather than AEW, so doubt this helped fill that particular capability gap at the time. 

 

Mark

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8 minutes ago, canberraman said:

51 Sqn did indeed deploy Nimrod R.1 XW664 on Operation Corporate. Although their Forward Operating Base remains classified, the Sqn was reported to have flown a total of 10 missions in support of the campaign. The aircraft's primary role was SIGINT collection and analysis rather than AEW, so doubt this helped fill that particular capability gap at the time. 

 

Mark

 

It may have been classifed, but there was a red dot to the west of South America in the faires office map of the world of the places that 51 Sqn had operated. The island is also mentioned in the "Harrier 809" book. There would have been probably more missions if the aircarft had not lost an engine on landing and having to have it replaced with minimal equipment and ground crew.

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3 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

 

Mention was made of 51 Sqn Nimrods operating to the West of the fleet.

 

I seem to recall there was also some very quiet talk afterwards amongst the Kipper Fleet boys which suggested some recce operations went on by maritime Nimrods supported by tanker Victors down towards South Georgia (Possibly one Victor also took part in the recce element) and at least one sweep near to the Argentine coast checking for elements of their surface fleet - presumably the 25 de Mayo. 

All kept very secret - if true, which I suspect it was, impressively brave work by all involved, Unarmed Nimrods at fairly low level, deliberately seeking.  An extraordinarily dangerous game, - more so than the much hyped Vulcan efforts.  From what I know of Kipper fleet folk, they would have done it and kept strictly schtumm. The close relationship between the Maritime force and the Navy always intrigued me. 

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Re. the performance of Blue Fox, there was an interesting thread on Pprune on this and I never realised that even later in service, and especially during in 1982, Blue Fox was basically an experimental radar which was put into (very limited) production. The engineers working on the radars Knew them as individuals with individual quirks. Many of the systems and components sent down south were bench items from test systems hurriedly pressed into service.  There were very few established tactics and procedures which resulted in big differences between the squadrons experience with the system.

 

It was only with Blue Vixen that the system settled down. 

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11 hours ago, Riksbar said:

Re. the performance of Blue Fox, there was an interesting thread on Pprune on this and I never realised that even later in service, and especially during in 1982, Blue Fox was basically an experimental radar which was put into (very limited) production. The engineers working on the radars Knew them as individuals with individual quirks. Many of the systems and components sent down south were bench items from test systems hurriedly pressed into service.  There were very few established tactics and procedures which resulted in big differences between the squadrons experience with the system.

 

It was only with Blue Vixen that the system settled down. 

 

If I recall, Ward's book backs this up to an extent. It's common that some aircraft have better flying characteristics than others of the same type, and if I recall for one mission they chose the aircraft based on it having the best performing radar set in the squadron.

 

Ward's book is definitely a source that mentions 801 using radar and 800 not, and Hermes command issuing instructions to the SHARs not to use their radars but rely on the ships.

 

And that second point is also, I think, relevant to the OP. Throughout the book they are reliant on ship radar for their long range picture. AEW is never mentioned to my memory, i.e. it was never a source of information for them, ergo it sounds like they didn't have it. They were nearly always relying on the carriers radar, and the carriers were stationed generally far enough away to be out of range of an attack from the mainland.

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Hi

     I remember the story at the time ( 1982) true or not ? 

   that people were visiting any museum gannet to assess the state of the airframe 

    if it was true, then obviously none passed the visual 

     cheers

         jerry

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55 minutes ago, brewerjerry said:

Hi

     I remember the story at the time ( 1982) true or not ? 

   that people were visiting any museum gannet to assess the state of the airframe 

    if it was true, then obviously none passed the visual 

     cheers

         jerry

 

Even had any airframe passed the scrutiny, how did they expect the deploy them ? Could a Gannet AEW operate from HMS Hermes without catapults ?

And weren't the Gannets stripped of all their radar equipment to be used for the RAF Shackleton AEW fleet ?

If this even happened, I doubt that it would have brought to anything

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1 hour ago, kiseca said:

And that second point is also, I think, relevant to the OP. Throughout the book they are reliant on ship radar for their long range picture. AEW is never mentioned to my memory, i.e. it was never a source of information for them, ergo it sounds like they didn't have it. They were nearly always relying on the carriers radar, and the carriers were stationed generally far enough away to be out of range of an attack from the mainland.

The 3 SUE Exocet attacks on the Task Force demonstrate the implications of the lack of AEW.  In each case the first alert was the detection by ESM of the Etendard Agave searching with a few sweeps before launching the missiles.  I was the Officer of the Watch in Ambuscade on the 25th May which happened to be the most upthreat unit when the initial Agave (Handbrake) detection was made by our UAA1 ESM and allowed us to alert everyone else.  The Etendards were seen on our 992 radar shortly afterwards as they launched and turned away and some tracking of the Exocets was also achieved but thanks to our having completed the pre-planned chaff and ship manoeuvres by the time the homing head radars switched on the missiles found Atlantic Conveyor instead and they passed clear of Ambuscade and sadly on to hit Conveyor who had no chaff protection.  The other two attacks also were first alerted by ESM rather than radar detection of the incoming Etendards.     

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AEW

I’d recommend this book.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Admiralty-AEW-Airborne-Projects-Profiles/dp/0956195121/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=The+Admiralty+and+aew&qid=1638528717&s=books&sr=1-1

 

Using helicopters as AEW platforms actually dates back to 1947. But then only the aerial was to be carried aloft with everything else on the ship and a long cable between the two! Needless to say it never got beyond the proposal stage after everyone stopped laughing.  Further helicopter based AEW proposals based on Sea King were made in 1967 and 1970 but in both cases never got far as, amongst other issues, land based AEW cover was the preferred solution. Fine in a NATO scenario but......

 

Then comes 4 May 1982 and the sinking of Sheffield. Development of a new Sea King based system begins immediately using a development of the Nimrod’s Searchwater Radar. In Aug the first operational flight of 2 aircraft sailed south on Illustrious to replace Invincible off the Falklands. Amazing what can be achieved in a crisis.

 

Nimrod

I’ve also read that some of the first probed MR.2P aircraft deployed to Ascension carried out very long patrols both to the exclusion zone and then across to, and north along the Argentine coast, while remaining in international airspace.

 

Argentine view

I’d recommend this book if you can track down a copy. Covers all types used and has tales from the Argentine pilots attacking British ships. Compare with British accounts and it is interesting how the fog of war still exists.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wings-Malvinas-Argentine-Over-Falklands/dp/1902109228/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Air+war+over+the+Malvinas&qid=1638529863&s=books&sr=1-1

 

There has also been a series of thin books published in recent years in the Latin America@War series, throwing light on particular aspects of the South Atlantic war drawing from records and memories of both sides.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Carrier-Risk-Argentinean-Anti-Submarine-Operations/dp/1911628704/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=Air+war+over+the+Malvinas&qid=1638530200&s=books&sr=1-3

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Skyhawks-over-South-Atlantic-Argentine/dp/1912866390/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=Air+war+over+the+Malvinas&qid=1638530200&s=books&sr=1-2

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/find-him-bring-back-Anti-Submarine/dp/1913336395/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Bring+me+his+hat&qid=1638530419&s=books&sr=1-1

 

And coming next year

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Handbrake-Dassault-Etendard-Fighter-Bombers-Falklands/dp/1915070724/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=Super+etendard&qid=1638530621&s=books&sr=1-7

 

The first of those titles throws up an interesting scenario. The Argentinians tracked a sub off their coast that they believed was British, but comparison with British records reveals it wasn’t. The likely candidates are are Chile, USSR and USA. But thus far no one has held their hands up to claim it was theirs.

 

And for a more technical read on the logistical side including the build up on Ascension.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Logistics-Falklands-War-Expeditionary-Warfare/dp/1473899044/ref=pd_sbs_51/257-1293714-7866718?pd_rd_w=D2xpp&pf_rd_p=a3a7088f-4aec-4dbd-97cc-9a059581fe7b&pf_rd_r=QRKMH2AGZ13QDVV48RGW&pd_rd_r=fd98e8b4-27ac-4897-a50e-4c8f240a1e3d&pd_rd_wg=HK85T&pd_rd_i=1473899044&psc=1

 

Edit:- Another interesting aspect is how the Argentinians were able to use their Neptunes and Trackers to locate the British Task Force using ESM and minimal use of active radar and then to direct attack aircraft to their targets. Those Super Etendards had a very good idea of where they needed to fly to in order to launch their Exocets, only popping up at the last minute to use their own radars to obtain final fixes before launching. 

 

Both AEW and longer ranged fighters able to patrol further out would have been a great advantage.

 

 

 

Edited by EwenS
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3 minutes ago, Lord Riot said:

I wonder how many lives would have been saved if we’d still had the Ark Royal with its Gannets, Phantoms and Buccaneers.

 

On the other hand would Ark have been able to operate her aircraft when Hermes and Invincible operated those Sea Harriers?

 

Fog was a recurring problem. Sea Harriers were able to be recovered in fog by virtue of the carriers tossing flares over the side and allowing the Sea Harriers to fly down the line at slow speed to find the ship and then land vertically. That would simply not have been possible with conventional aircraft flying from Ark who would have needed to see the lights of the Optical Landing System from miles out.

 

Heavy seas were another problem. Large vertical deck movements in heavy seas had less effect on the operation of STOVL aircraft than on conventional aircraft. Ark wasn’t the size of a US supercarrier and even they can have problems operating aircraft in heavy seas. There would have been no alternative airfield or deck for a conventional aircraft to land on if deck movements became too great.

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2 hours ago, Lord Riot said:

I wonder how many lives would have been saved if we’d still had the Ark Royal with its Gannets, Phantoms and Buccaneers.

 

After having read quite a bit about the various events that led to the war, I believe that had the UK still had proper carriers in service, this would have saved a lot of lives on both sides... the deterrent value of a carrier group is much larger than that of the task force that reconquered the Falklands and I often wonder if Argentina would have even invaded the islands with the threat of one or two carrier groups

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Yes, had Britain at the time had the economy to fund such a fleet, with the public's willingness to pay for - and not least man - it, then there is no doubt that such a fleet would have been much more effective.  But that requires rather large, and not particularly credible, changes in post-war history.

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

As Ark Royal was old and very tired even on her last commission, she wouldn't have been available anyway.  Might as well ask for the entire British Pacific Fleet.

She was in better condition than you would think, and her Buccs and Phantoms had a much greater range, and a far bigger payload. 

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No argument about the aircraft, but the ship was a lot older and weary.  There remained the Navy's problem of mannjng.  She wasn't scrapped when she was because of the air wing.  Reality isn't a matter of simple decisions based on desirability.

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On 03/12/2021 at 15:04, EwenS said:

Article from last year about RN carriers since 1960. First part notes Ark’s condition v that of Eagle in 1972.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/royal-navy-big-deck-carriers-from-1960-to-today-a-commentary/

 

 

A fantastically comprehensive article, thanks. :like: 

Some interesting nuggets that I've not come across before too - such as the post-Falklands idea to use old GR3s as tankers (the cogs in my head are already whirling with What if... ideas). Also, great pic of a Shar looking distinctly lost on the expansive deck of USS America.

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