Jump to content

1/48 - Supermarine Scimitar by DB Model Kits (DBMK) - 3D renders+3D printed test parts+schemes - release in 2024 ?


Homebee

Recommended Posts

On 14/12/2021 at 20:43, Bikitzer said:

- How many different nose cone types the Scimitar F.1 had?

Not prepared to embarrass myself by trying to commit to an answer for your second question :D, but I think that the answer to this one is four:

-The early 'fat' nose cone

-The fairly standard ranging radar nose cone (black radome at tip)

-The PR nose (I suspect also fairly common - photos frequently show Scimitars with a nosecone with a small window at the tip - as it's in exactly the same place as the forward camera window on the PR nose, and as the PR nose has doors that can be closed to cover windows that aren't in use, I suspect the two are one and the same, but if I'm wrong then there's five!)

-The Harley light nose cone used by FRU Scimitars

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ChocolateCrisps said:

Not prepared to embarrass myself by trying to commit to an answer for your second question :D, but I think that the answer to this one is four:

-The early 'fat' nose cone

-The fairly standard ranging radar nose cone (black radome at tip)

-The PR nose (I suspect also fairly common - photos frequently show Scimitars with a nosecone with a small window at the tip - as it's in exactly the same place as the forward camera window on the PR nose, and as the PR nose has doors that can be closed to cover windows that aren't in use, I suspect the two are one and the same, but if I'm wrong then there's five!)

-The Harley light nose cone used by FRU Scimitars

Thank you for looking into it. I wasn't sure I saw descriptions for all these nosecones correctly neither was sure I saw right picture(-s)...

 

- The EARLY ("FAT") nose cone - is this the one that can be seen on WT859 cockpit at Old Sarum? If so I could not find any other Scimitar photos with such cone/nose/radome... I checked WT859's history and prior to having the cockpit being hacked-off this frame has been used for all sorts of flight and static tests and I suspect they have changed the nose cone to fit the purpose (for some of the static tests that is because these were the last ones before this frame was de-commissioned and withdrawn from service)... I have read somewhere there allegedly were two different (so-called EARLY and LATE) noses used on Scimitar but I failed to see any Simitars' photos with an "EARLY" nose(-s) or spot a difference between EARLY and LATE noses for that matter... 

 

- The LATE type nose cone/radome. Yep, agree with that one, though strictly speaking/writing :) some of the radomes were not marked black, examples: frames XD212, XD214, XD215, XD225, XD226 (the photos marked "1958" show a black tip, the photos dated later show no black tip nose), XD243, XD249, XD268, XD277/101/R (by 1964 the number was changed to "111" and the PR nose installed), XD322/Black 112/R from HMS Ark Royal (photos after 1960 indicate black radome marking), XD323, Black 101/R, Black 110/R and White 116/E...

Also Richard A. Franks' book, p.53 shows the LATE nose with and without an RP.

 

- The PR nose - some of these noses did not have a window at the cone tip (or may be the photos of the noses I saw were of poor quality)- so you may be well right, there could be two slightly different types of the PR noses/cones! Shame there is no details on these PR noses in the sources such as "Scimitar File" and "Scimitar Supermarine's Last Fighter" by Richard A. Franks...

 

- Some of the PR noses had the refuelling probe too -(frame XD328 (White 144/R) for example).

 

- The Harley light nose - that was one-off project for the tests in 1967, was not produced en masse, neither commissioned... Example: Frame XD317 - the one that rests at the FAA Museum in Yeovilton. 

 

Quick summary:

- EARLY nose - has to be seen and have to have some distinctive features as to a LATE nose;

- LATE nose - clearly there were two types of identical shape/cross section - with and without a Refuelling Probe (RP) added;

- PR nose - it looks like there were three different types (at least one of them had an RP);

 

Frankly I am quite surprised to see thee findings, so thankyou very much for pointing me at right points! 

 

Anybody else is welcome to contribute to this discussion. I am sure I have overlooked something or quite possibly got something wrong - feel free to correct me? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Bikitzer Looks like you've been busy! I don't really know much about any of those for certain, only what I've gleaned from photos, books, and the Pilot's Notes, but I'll post what I think at least!

 

Early "Fat" nose cone - I'm not really sure how to identify this too well, it's just something I know how to recognise! It's a shorter, more rounded nose cone often seen in photos of early Scimitars, such as this one. It's interesting that you mention WT859, as the shape of that nose does indeed look more like the early one to me, it certainly isn't the Later one - but I wasn't aware of the early one having a radome!

 

The Late nose cone - I'd be interested to see clear photographs of the aircraft you mention having this without a black tip - although I've seen a few profiles depicting that, I've never seen a photo where I thought it was actually the case rather than just a misidentified Early or PR nose.

 

The PR nose cone - As far as I'm aware there's only one type of this, the issue is the windows which can be opened or shut depending on what cameras are being used - the more of them are shut, the harder it becomes to identify! As I say, I think it's quite common to see these with just the tip window open, perhaps as a gun camera, but I think that could probably be closed too (this photo zoomed all the way in seems to show this)? With all of them open there is a window at the tip, one oblique window either side (although the starboard one is lower than the port one), and two vertical ones underneath. Solent Sky's airframe actually has this nose as far as I know, albeit painted over to resemble the Late nose with its radome.

 

The Harley light nose - I know very little about this beyond knowing that it exists - the Pilot's Notes do mention it as a modification though - which suggests it was approved and rolled out for use?

 

Regarding the refuelling probes, I don't really know very much about them - I'd always assumed they could be fitted or removed to any nose as necessary, but I have no idea if that's right!

 

One other thing to point out - the nose fitted to the Scimitar was swappable as far as I know, so two photos of the same airframe showing different paint jobs on the nose may well mean that a different nose had been fitted!

 

Edit: You mentioned the drawing on P.53 of the Franks book, and it looks to me like that confirms the fuel probe also being removeable - so likely any of the nose options can have it added as and when necessary.

Edited by ChocolateCrisps
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would agree, early blunt nose, later pointier nose (both gun radar equipped, and not - painted over), PR nose and lamp nose.

 

Examples of Harley light nose as used for fleet defence and support work by Scimitars of FRU Airwork,

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/abpic-media-eu-production/pictures/full_size_022/1033614-large.jpg

 

https://www.airhistory.net/photo/297335/XD236

 

Think this is the camera nose

https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/4/3/3/2794334.jpg?v=v40

 

This artist seems to have picked up on the various nose fits,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jylascurain/3858514995

 

 

Edited by 71chally
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/27/2021 at 9:25 AM, Beermonster1958 said:

I have personally, never understood the fascination with an aircraft that it is, to me anyway, nothing more than a naval equivalent of the less than stellar Supermarine Swift.

Interesting.  Are you perchance the same @Beermonster1958 who posted “I have zero tolerance for the sort of negative/dismissive attitudes you describe.  To be honest, I think if people aren’t interested then they should simply move on without comment” in a thread about the prospect of a 1/350 kit of some paper German carrier?  Or was that someone else using your name? 
 

Many of us “have never understood the fascination with” mythical Nazi aircraft carriers… but were roundly told off for expressing that opinion.

 

Asking for a friend, obviously.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 16/12/2021 at 13:31, ChocolateCrisps said:

@Bikitzer Looks like you've been busy! I don't really know much about any of those for certain, only what I've gleaned from photos, books, and the Pilot's Notes, but I'll post what I think at least!

 

 

Thank you for your detailed response.

 

I was in the middle of compiling my response to you with all possible references but something has happen and whole text I wrote got wiped out... :( 

 

I shall respond to you again on Wednesday, the 22nd of Dec. 

Edited by Bikitzer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very interesting: I wonder how long it would be before someone says the kit "isn't accurate" because it doesn't agree with xxx plans?

 

In the meantime I hope this proves to be a top-seller; it's an interesting subject and another one that I wouldn't necessarily have considered buying before now. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Very interesting: I wonder how long it would be before someone says the kit "isn't accurate" because it doesn't agree with xxx plans?

The kit is to be based on the 3D scans. Whatever drawings and schemes we have at our disposal are not trustworthy/cause more questions than answers. All we use from the official sources are general dimensions of this A/C. 

Also there as many opinions as many people, everyone is entitled to have one or a judgement for that matter :) This project is to go ahead as planned.

  • Like 11
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Bikitzer said:

Some more of the projections:

It's crazy to see just how far even the good looking plans are from reality! Maybe this will be another way to make a bit of extra money off this project - you'll be able to provide publishers with their first ever set of decent Scimitar plans! :D

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, ChocolateCrisps said:

It's crazy to see just how far even the good looking plans are from reality! Maybe this will be another way to make a bit of extra money off this project - you'll be able to provide publishers with their first ever set of decent Scimitar plans! :D

It remains to be seen- I can assure you our team has a fountain of doable and potentially interesting and profitable ideas about the kit. There will be one or two nice touches to the kit to make it even more fun putting together and fun to look at when the model is finished due to few more extra bits we plan to add if I may say so :).

As of selling the plans - we are not going to do the 2D plans because it would deny the idea of developing a kit using 3D/CAD technology :) . I am sure there will be interested parties to buy a 3D model once the 3D model is done and put for a good use to mill the casts. As an example I can safely say that some of our WWII 3D tank models were bought by the "World of Tanks" PC game developers few years ago so you can see them in action if you have a game... 

Edited by Bikitzer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have been granted unprecedented and unlimited access to the archives at Solent Sky Museum so we visited it and scanned all Scimitar related manuals, parts' catalogues and Pilot's Notes kindly prepared by Museum's curator and that can be used for kit production. Honestly, the Museum team was ever so nice to us I was ready to give them all a hug, so touched I was!!! :) It reminded me the assistance I received from the RAF Cosford Museum few years ago when we were developing 1/72 Folland Gnat, Bristol 166 and other great British aircraft at PROresin (www.olimpmodels.com). 

We also been shown some of the FROG's 1/96 master models from which the casts were made of!!! Some of them were made of wood and others - of brass. These and other FROG's bits are safely stored at the back of the Museum and dated back to 1930's.

20211221-122825.jpg 20211221-125457.jpg 

I shall come back to this thread later today - we are processing all the info we have collected yesterday.

 

P.S. To all those who mentioned anything negative about Scimitar - we went through volumes of memoirs and notes of those who actually flew and maintained this A/C between 1957 and 1972 - no negative evidence found, quite contrary - praised for its performance and handling characteristics as well as for a clever design allowing maintain and repair the A/C with minimal effort considering the complexity of this machine and sometimes rough conditions at the sea. 

 

Edited by Bikitzer
  • Like 10
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Trenton guy said:

202 Replies on a kit that is 18 months away. We do love our Scimitars —- me included. Can’t wait.

Well,

After scanning about 20-25 manuals and going / sifting now through what we have gathered yesterday I still have quite few unanswered questions. I am going to post those here and hoping to see meaningful replies :) .

Besides, the God has created a Man and the Naval Aviation. Everything else is secondary IMHO :) .  

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...
  • Homebee changed the title to 1/48(?) - Supermarine Scimitar by DB Model Kits (DBMK) - 3D renders in progress - release October 2023 ?
18 minutes ago, Adam Poultney said:

Are the yellow parts going to be etch?

The wing fences will be etched to get scale thickness and are looking at how to make their use straightforward. We are looking at where we can utilise PE to improve accuracy on things such as the U/C doors where it will be combined with IM plastic.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Homebee said:

I must confess that I hate PE parts... And I think I'm not alone in this view.

 

V.P.

I only like them when they are appropriate for the scale thickness. Wing fences in IM plastic, for example, just do not have the finesse. 
 

Our intention is to make them easy to use (I.e. a groove on the upper wing surface to accept the wing fence.) and design in from the start.

1 minute ago, jaw said:

Looks like a Scimitar to me - and I hope that it will be in 1/48th scale.

 

John

Yes it is in 1/48.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Homebee changed the title to 1/48 - Supermarine Scimitar by DB Model Kits (DBMK) - 3D renders in progress - release October 2023 ?
1 hour ago, Homebee said:

I must confess that I hate PE parts... And I think I'm not alone in this view.

 

V.P.

Personally I'd use them as templates for plastic card parts........ The best solution to keep everyone happy is a plastic part and an etch alternative.

  • Like 2
  • Confused 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...