Which fighter aircraft would Argentina have used had Peròn sided officially with the Axis?

[Sturmovik]

7 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

Not really........ read the title. There is no option in his vote for "None of the above" 

Help me choose between the two above planes, no other options please.

[Graham Boak]

The Japanese certainly never received such a wishlist of German aircraft as quoted above.  They received a squadron of He.112s prewar, one Bf109E, one Fw.190, and one Ar.196 from a German commerce raider.  And an Me.210?  They were intended to get an Me.262 and an Me.163 but they never arrived.  They would have liked a lot more.

The Turkish could easily obtain Fw.190s because of contiguous borders, but they were the only ally to get them before Hungary got some fighter bombers very late on.

The Spanish found it very difficult to get German aircraft during WW2, and their own production was postwar.

German allies generally found it difficult to obtain German aircraft, except when they were physically in action against the Russians.

However, there would have been no way that the Germans could have supplied Argentina with anything in significant numbers.

 

As it is only a What-If, why does such a question matter?  However, it is clear that the Germans were m ore willing to provide allies with Nf.109Gs than with the Focke-Wulf.

[Ed Russell]

4 hours ago, Sturmovik said:

Help me choose between the two above planes

Why not just choose the one you like, or, the true enthusisasts answer - do them both! 

[Sturmovik]

3 minutes ago, Ed Russell said:

Why not just choose the one you like, or, the true enthusisasts answer - do them both! 

Would love to buy both of them but, money is an issue right now, so I can only choose one.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    I vote fw 190,

     did kurt tank go to aregentina after ww2 ? 

   cheers

     jerry 

[Sturmovik]

51 minutes ago, brewerjerry said:

 did kurt tank go to aregentina after ww2

He did. He was the master mind behind the Pulqui 2, a sort of "could have been" of the Ta 183.

[dalea]

I vote Bf 109F-4. Spanish connection. Who would want to join Germany in 1943? In 1942, top of the world.

[Sturmovik]

2 hours ago, dalea said:

I vote Bf 109F-4. Spanish connection

Yep, and it's winning by 9 votes against 2 of the 190. There's still time until November 26th before the poll closes.

[MDriskill]

An interesting question!

 

Given Argentina's precedent of the fixed-gear Curtiss Hawks, I'd definitely lean toward the 109. Smaller and simpler than the 190, without the complex integrated throttle controls etc, and possibly more suitable to eventual local production. Maybe with an alternate engine less complex than the DB too? Hmmm.....how about an Allison 109??

Edited November 25, 2021 by MDriskill

[Wulfman]

Bf-109 X, maybe with fixed undercarriage ! ( just given myself an idea ) Count this as a vote for the 109.

 

Wulfman

[JWM]

On 11/23/2021 at 5:41 AM, RainierHooker said:

I figure that Turkey makes a good proxy for Argentina in this case. A medium sized developed, but still developing country. Turkey received 72 Fw. 190A-3a (the A-3a being the export model of the 190) in 1942 and '43. I'd probably also use the Turkish aircraft as a reference for markings as they received standard RLM finishes with the Turkish flag on the rudder and Turkish emblems on the wings...

 

Yes! The Turkey FW 190 is a good example, that also 190 was a subject of export even to neutral countries, not only to ally like in case of later in war export of them to Hungary.  The neutrality of countries who might have join the Axies is a very interesting topic of historical studies. In late 1941, before Pearl Harbor when US still was off the war and Germans domination has only opposition in UK and Soviets (who were almost defeated)  - why Spain, Turkey, Sweden, Switzerland, Portugal (not only Argentina)  still remained neutral... It would be much harder for UK (and rest of the world) when Spain would attack Gibraltar or Turkey would help Germans to go further in Middle East... We are all lucky that it never happened.

Regards

J-W

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by JWM

[Black Knight]

@Sturmovik , looks like it will be the Messerschmitt 109F

Looking forward to seeing it

[Sturmovik]

5 hours ago, Black Knight said:

@Sturmovik , looks like it will be the Messerschmitt 109F

Looking forward to seeing it

Yep! I'll be making the purchase of the Eduard 109F at the end of this month/beginning of December. Hopefully it won't go out of stock.

[28ZComeback]

On 11/22/2021 at 11:41 PM, RainierHooker said:

I figure that Turkey makes a good proxy for Argentina in this case. A medium sized developed, but still developing country. Turkey received 72 Fw. 190A-3a (the A-3a being the export model of the 190) in 1942 and '43. I'd probably also use the Turkish aircraft as a reference for markings as they received standard RLM finishes with the Turkish flag on the rudder and Turkish emblems on the wings...

 

Argentina as a strategic ally, would be valuable, but Turkey was in a class by itself, as the sole-supplier of chromium to Germany until the first weeks of 1944. Albert Speer incidentally predicted that without Turkish raw materials, the German war effort would fail within one year. Turns out he was dead right.  Anyway, the 190s would have never been exported to Argentina for beef.  I vote for 109's or He-51's. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by 28ZComeback

[Adam Maas]

31 minutes ago, 28ZComeback said:

Argentina as a strategic ally, would be valuable, but Turkey was in a class by itself, as the sole-supplier of chromium to Germany until the first weeks of 1944. Albert Speer incidentally predicted that without Turkish raw materials, the German war effort would fail within one year. Turns out he was dead right.  Anyway, the 190s would have never been exported to Argentina for beef.  I vote for 109's or He-51's. 

Honestly? I'd bet on remaining stocks of Hawk 75's. The Germans had access to remaining captured stocks (they made some use of them as advanced trainers) and could transfer newer 109F's to Vichy France as replacements for the Hawk 75's that weren't taken by the Germans after the fall of France. 

I highly doubt Germany would have provided first line fighters to South America unless it became a major active front, but they had access to a LOT of somewhat obsolete fighters that weren't suitable for frontline use anymore, but were still capable aircraft. The fact that Argentina was already an operator of the type makes that transfer likely (and note that Germany sold Hawk 75's to Finland in 1940, well prior to the co-belligerent status)
 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Adam Maas

[JOCKNEY]

On 23/11/2021 at 16:29, Graham Boak said:

The Japanese certainly never received such a wishlist of German aircraft as quoted above.  They received a squadron of He.112s prewar, one Bf109E, one Fw.190, and one Ar.196 from a German commerce raider.  And an Me.210?  They were intended to get an Me.262 and an Me.163 but they never arrived.  They would have liked a lot more.

The Turkish could easily obtain Fw.190s because of contiguous borders, but they were the only ally to get them before Hungary got some fighter bombers very late on.

The Spanish found it very difficult to get German aircraft during WW2, and their own production was postwar.

German allies generally found it difficult to obtain German aircraft, except when they were physically in action against the Russians.

However, there would have been no way that the Germans could have supplied Argentina with anything in significant numbers.

 

As it is only a What-If, why does such a question matter?  However, it is clear that the Germans were m ore willing to provide allies with Nf.109Gs than with the Focke-Wulf.

 

The Japanese did build their own version of the Me163, but not from an actual aircraft. 

The submarine that was carrying the aircraft stopped on the way home and a person left it to fly back to Japan carrying the owners manual.

 

The submarine was sunk before it got to Japan, so they designed their own around the manual !

 

Surely that the point here you don't need a physical aircraft just all the drawings to manufacture the machine tools to build your own ?

 

I would choose the 190, far more robust in construction,  easier maintenance with a radial engine and wider tracked undercarriage so better for inexperienced pilots, or rougher airfields.

 

Cheers Pat 

[Graham Boak]

Adam:  Argentina already operated fixed-undercarriage Hawk 75s, so yes this would have been an obvious choice.  However remember than many of these fighters had flown to Algeria, so only a fraction of those delivered would still be available.

 

Pat;  I don't think that the BMW 801 was a low (or even lower) maintenance engine.  The Bf.109 was however a low cost production item.  As this is a What If, perhaps we could consider the Bf.109X with its Pratt&Whitney, although this would then double Argentina's supply problems!

 

Manufacturing machine tools is major activity and not for low-technology companies such as Argentina at this time.  As they were to find with their post war designs, when machine tools (and engines) were available on the world market again.  On this general subject, I recall being a green apprentice commenting, to my boss "It's a good job aircraft don't have to carry their own paperwork!"  This is not allowing for the time taken to set up the production lines and build the jigs and train the staff, manufacture and assemble the parts.

 

The other question is how Argentine was going to pay for these supplies - presumably not just aircraft but precious tanks, trucks, artillery would all be needed.  Argentina made its money from beef, either as  frozen steak or corned and tinned.  No doubt Germany would he happy to get such, but how?  Were the Atlantic open to such trade, Germany would have already won the war in the West and have no reason to support Argentina in its local territorial ambitions.