Su-75 "Checkmate"

[JPuente54]

The Dubai Airshow this year showed the new Su-75 "Checkmate" at the show recently. Has anyone else heard or read anything about this new aircraft? "Checkmate" is the name the Russians have given it. National Defense Magazine has a small article and photo in their email I receive. It is being presented as a Russian alternative to possible F-35 buyers.

[bentwaters81tfw]

Not flown yet, still in development.

[exdraken]

More here:

But as stated above, not an airplane yet, less so an operational one!

Supposedly mainly for export... not sure if this concept works out!!

 

[Doom3r]

There were talks about it on MAKS, there was the promo on Dubai Airshow but this is basically it. They originally claimed it is going to be actual flying prototype but right now they state this particular aircraft is for static testing. Basically nobody really knows how is it going to pan out. Let's not forget that first T-50 prototype flew in 2011 but actual Su-57 entered service only last year. Even worse: if I understood right the missiles shown in promo for Su-75 is in development as well. 

 

Funny thing is that in promo video they have not only F-35 in crosshairs but also newest Turkish UAV that was presented recently. 

 

 

[Mfezi]

10 hours ago, Doom3r said:

Let's not forget that first T-50 prototype flew in 2011 but actual Su-57 entered service only last year.

 

No argument with the overall sentiment, but just to point out that this is not bad at all for a modern fighter:

T-50 first flight: 29 Jan 2010

Su-57 service introduction: 25 Dec 2020

That is just under 11 years

 

X-35 first flight: 24 Oct 2000

F-35B service introduction (the first model to reach that status): 31 July 2015

A little under 15 years

 

YF-22 first flight: 29 Sept 1990

F-22A service introduction: 15 Dec 2005

A bit over 15 years

 

Rafale first flight: 4 July 1986

Introduction: 18 May 2001

Just under 15 years

 

The Eurofighter was about 9 years from prototype to service introduction, but that is if you don't count the EAP which flew about 8 years before the Eurofighter prototype, so the overall programme was also around 17 years from first flight to service introduction.

[Doom3r]

1 hour ago, Mfezi said:

 

No argument with the overall sentiment, but just to point out that this is not bad at all for a modern fighter:

T-50 first flight: 29 Jan 2010

Su-57 service introduction: 25 Dec 2020

That is just under 11 years

 

X-35 first flight: 24 Oct 2000

F-35B service introduction (the first model to reach that status): 31 July 2015

A little under 15 years

 

YF-22 first flight: 29 Sept 1990

F-22A service introduction: 15 Dec 2005

A bit over 15 years

 

Rafale first flight: 4 July 1986

Introduction: 18 May 2001

Just under 15 years

 

The Eurofighter was about 9 years from prototype to service introduction, but that is if you don't count the EAP which flew about 8 years before the Eurofighter prototype, so the overall programme was also around 17 years from first flight to service introduction.

First of all my point wasn't about that it would take a lot b/c it is Russian. No I was just basing my estimate on the another Russian airplane that is just entering the service b/c projecting when Russian airplane is going to enter the service using as example let's say Rafale is a bit strange. If we wanted to just talk about numbers it would be shame to do not mention J-10 (first flight in 1998, entered service in 2006) and J-20 (2011, entered service in 2017 and currently is being produced in huge numbers)

[exdraken]

there are many factors that decide on prototoype to service intro time, no?

 

amongst them funding, funding and funding, next to expectations/ specifications/ ambitions,

 

I assume Sukhoi is trying to narrow down specifications by evaluating expectations/ ambitions of potential customers currently in order to secure some funding!

 

 

Fighters that were supposed to enter service in the late 1990s all got delayed by lack of funding and urgency. (cold war ended, etc...)

F-35 got delayed mostly by being overambitious (3 in 1 requirements) and at least the first 10 years also without any urgency.

 

my 2 ct on those 2:

Su-57: rather ambitious, little funding, not urgently needed (originally)

J-20: rather ambitious, lots of funding, urgently needed

 

[Hook]

The just-out Yefim Gordon / Dmitriy Komissarov Su-57 book has a section on this aircraft (as well as sections on the MiG 1.44, Su-47 and stealth UAV projects. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre 

[Mike]

Looks like an X-15 and an F-35 had a bay-bay

[Doom3r]

Don't know if you noticed (and how true is that) but in the promo video in my 1st message for a few seconds they show something that appears to be an unmanned version of this aircraft. That would be definitely interesting to see. And how would it be used in different roles.

 

2 hours ago, Hook said:

The just-out Yefim Gordon / Dmitriy Komissarov Su-57 book has a section on this aircraft (as well as sections on the MiG 1.44, Su-47 and stealth UAV projects. 

Maybe offtopic but what do they say about 1.44? What happened to the project and was it's results used in the further developments?

[MT1]

The EAP was a technology demonstrator not a prototype for Typhoon. The two jets were similar in appearance but different in size and shape. 

[exdraken]

I'd think a Russian, rel. small stealth fighter could have some potential, an ddefinitely would be a threat to 4th generation fighters/ airforces.

 

BUT: i think in order to be credible, a domestic order would be needed. I do not think the Su-30MKI effect would apply once more, when India actually funded most of the project, and the Russian AF only incorporating the derivative Su-30SM many years later 

 

why would the RuAF not want it?

would be a fighter bomber, no? not a real threat to the Su-57 of somewhat questionable performance (actually also the F-22A future is far from secure it seems!)

[Doom3r]

1 hour ago, exdraken said:

why would the RuAF not want it?

would be a fighter bomber, no? not a real threat to the Su-57 of somewhat questionable performance (actually also the F-22A future is far from secure it seems!)

I don't think they "do not want it" it's might be a case that they cannot afford it or/and do not have capacity to do it right now: military and Air Force particularly was neglected for a very long time (since the fall of USSR till probably the wake up call which was war with Georgia in 2008). During that period their assets were not maintained properly (especially in 90th), decayed and got outdated. Russia today is trying to catchup on lot of things: Su-30 & Su-35 are entering service in addition to old Su-27 & MiG-29 and maybe replace them, Su-34 to replace Su-24, MiG-35 is also entering the service in small quantities, Tu-22M3 and Tu-160 are getting upgraded and new planes are getting built, Su-57 entering the service, PAK DA is in development, all sort of UAVs, small cargo plane to replace the An-26, lot of ramblings about a need for big cargo plane to replace An-124 (if I remember right they even wanted to restart it's production but in addition that Ukraine is going to claim those as counterfeit they might not have all required documentation/parts for those), etc... At the same time you are still need to support all existing airframes that are still in service so I am afraid they are simply cannot get all what they want and a huge order for another plane which role is already filled by other things might be the straw that could break the camel's back. 

[Giorgio N]

3 hours ago, MT1 said:

The EAP was a technology demonstrator not a prototype for Typhoon. The two jets were similar in appearance but different in size and shape. 

 

The same is true for the Rafale A, YF-22 and X-35, they were all technology demonstrators quite different from the later production aircraft.

[Mfezi]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

The same is true for the Rafale A, YF-22 and X-35, they were all technology demonstrators quite different from the later production aircraft.

 

Of course, and for each of these programs the differences between the initial technology demonstrator, the prototype of the production version, and the final production version all differed. The level of maturity at which the aircraft was introduced into service also differed. The different countries, companies and even programs all had different development philosophies, so there really is no perfect 1:1 comparison. For example, the Russian T-50/Su-57 didn't have a true separate technology demonstrator - they combined the whole development process into one - probably higher risk but slightly compressed development time. On the other end of the spectrum, the EAP and Eurofighter were separate programs very far removed from each other, which is why I also split them in my previous post. Nevertheless, my earlier post does illustrate the typical lengths of the overall development time of a modern fighter and the Russians are very much in the ballpark there - even on the fast side with the Su-57. As noted by "Doom3r", the Chinese seem to be even faster on a few of their latest programs, but a decade+ is pretty much the norm. We'll see when this "Checkmate" flies and how long it takes to get one into service from that point. It is likely that the "in service" part shouldn't be expected in this decade, but there are so many things that can affect it either way.

[exdraken]

4 hours ago, Mfezi said:

It is likely that the "in service" part shouldn't be expected in this decad

8 years from now. Coud be achieved!

 

But I guess an firm order would be needed!

India? They stepped out of the Su-57 program already... would they bite again?

UAE? If the US jold back the F-35, that could be an option.. although there is no real history of collaboration...

Egypt currently buys what it can get... so why not!

Algeria ,probably too early 

Turkey? Hmmm not sure how that "forced" symbiosis works. BA stepped out of the 5th gen development project..is it still alive?

[Hook]

12 hours ago, Doom3r said:

Maybe offtopic but what do they say about 1.44? What happened to the project and was it's results used in the further developments?

Long story short: politics, the economic state of Russia and OKB MiG, and the emergence of the F-22.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Robertone139]

Well, it's moving faster than you thought.

The Checkmate may well be being pushed ahead faster, aiming at the export market.