B-17F Nose Gun

[Hawkgrove]

I've gotten back into modeling since retiring a year ago.  After seeing the documentary Above and Beyond, the story of the Damn Yankee B-17F and the fate of the captan and crew I decided I have to model that aircraft.  I purchased the Academy B-17F kit which appears the closest to the aircraft.  I'll replace the wheels with Armory Models weighted wheels and a combination of decals that I'll create and use some after market sheets. I'll also scratch build the radio room which is lacking in the Academy kit, even though it won't be seen I enjoy adding details.  My biggest question is the nose gun in the front plexiglass. Has anyone ever kit bashed that into an existing dome or is there an aftermarket one I haven't found yet?  I've attached a picture of the Damn Yankee with the nose gun visible and one from another B-17 that looks similar.  Any additional information on this type of gun port and modeling it would be greatly appreciated. 

[dov]

First of all:

How you like to display the Fortress?

On the ground in parked position?

If so, there are no guns onstalled at all!

This is a prime error most modeller do.

No matter which air force, all guns removed when a/c is parked.

Happy modelling 

[Airgunner]

9 minutes ago, dov said:

First of all:

How you like to display the Fortress?

On the ground in parked position?

If so, there are no guns onstalled at all!

This is a prime error most modeller do.

No matter which air force, all guns removed when a/c is parked.

Happy modelling 

Both of those photos would suggest otherwise…the top photo shows the nose guns to have covers on. Given the top turret is covered I’d suggest they ‘may’ be removed, but not certainly. 

[72modeler]

@Hawkgrove,

 

First off, the 2nd photo you posted shows an experimental 20mm  cannnon and mount. There were  several variations seen on B-17F's  for guns mounted  in the nose cone, with the one in the photo you posted being one of the most common. FWIW, some variations were:

• single .50 cal gun centrally mounted in a trapedoidal opening
• single .50 cal gun mounted in a ball/socket or canvas covered boot
• two .50 cal guns mounted either side of the center in ball and socket mounts
• two .50 cal guns mounted together on the centerline. (I believe this was a mount normally fitted in the tail gun position and had a canvas boot over the guns

Due to the weight and recoil associated with the .50 cal weapon, there was usually a framework of metal tubing fitted that fit inside the curvature of the plexiglass nose cap. (The .30 cal guns fitted to B-17E's and earlier versions did not need this reinforcement due to the lighter weight and recoil of the smaller caliber gun.)

Mike

 

This linked article has text and photos that show the evolution of B-17 nose guns that  might be useful:

http://legendsintheirowntime.com/LiTOT/B17/B17_noseguns.html

 

Here are some photos that might be of use:

 

https://b17flyingfortress.de/cms/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/media-26791-600x486.jpg

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img18/9531/b17thelaststraw.jpg

 

https://media.defense.gov/2006/Jun/01/2000554780/1088/820/0/060517-F-1234S-021.JPG

 

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/usa/aircrafts/b-17/B-17_nose_art_The_Hag_of_Harderwyk.jpg

 

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/usa/aircrafts/b-17/B-17F_388th_Bomb_Group_Old_Ironsides.jpg

Edited November 22, 2021 by 72modeler
added link, added text

[theplasticsurgeon]

You may have been better off starting from the Revell B-17F kit,

That has a nose-dome with a gun mount very similar to you photos,

to which I added the strengthening frame.

I used that part on my build, but someone building Memphis Belle may well have it leftover.

 

[Hawkgrove]

Thanks, this is all helpful.  The best photo I can find of the Damn Yankee is my top one and its hard to see if it has the support framework.  From most photos I've seen it looks like the trapedoidal mount visible in the picture always has the support rods so I'll assume the Damn Yankee has the same.  I went with the Academy over the Revell because Academy had the navigator dome, wasn't paying attention to the nose gun option.  I'll display it parked but will make the mistake of having the guns installed, still like how that looks.  

Does anyone know if the Squadron Crystal Clear Canopy vacuform replacements for the B-17F (9175) have the nose with the gun mount option?  I've tried to find some more detailed pictures of whats included in the package and it appears to have two different nose domes, just can't see what the details on them are. 

Thanks again.

[tomprobert]

I can’t add any more detail to what you’ve been given regarding the nose gun set up, B-17s had the cooling jackets of the guns permanently fixed in place, meaning when the main body of the gun was removed, the jackets remained in place. 
 

In these images you can see the guns have been removed, but the hollow jackets are still in position, so it looks as if the guns are installed. Check out the one of the top turret. 

 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/10336

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by tomprobert

[theplasticsurgeon]

1 hour ago, Hawkgrove said:

 went with the Academy over the Revell because Academy had the navigator dome, wasn't paying attention to the nose gun option.

Revell has alternate parts for the astrodome as well.

[Snafu35]

Hello, Hawkgrove.

 

I did it when I realized Miss Ouachita. 

Model is Revell's one.

I drilled a hole in nose's piece, then I used tissue paper to represent the tarp:

This modification was often done in unit, so we can do this work as we see fit.

 

And as say Tomprobert, the cannon's perforated cooling tubes remained on the plane, and the gunners brought in the weapon that was stored in the armory between missions. I just watched the movie Target for Today, and the camera follows the crews getting off the trucks with their guns.

 

At 47'23"...

 

Happy modeling

Eric-Snafu35

[Hawkgrove]

Thank you Snafu, thats the direction I was leaning.  The academy kit comes with two different plexiglass noses and I can experiment on one first.  I also see you have flat glass covering the astrodome, I was wondering if that was another variation other than the dome glass.  When I look at the picture of the Damn Yankee I see the dome lip on the nose but not a clear dome so I assume it might be flat glass.  Good information, I'm still learning.  

 

[72modeler]

@Hawkgrove,

 

Here's a photo I found just now that shows the single gun mount and tubular reinforcing  structure very well. Hope you can use it. This one force landed in Switzerland. 42-30080, High Life, from the 351st BS, 100th BG

Mike

 

https://swissinternees.tripod.com/42-30080.jpg

[Hawkgrove]

Thanks 72modeler, couldn't open the image but googled the aircraft specifics you sent and think this might be the view.  It is a good clear shot of the port and bracing.   

[Snafu35]

On 24/11/2021 at 16:45, Hawkgrove said:

I also see you have flat glass covering the astrodome, I was wondering if that was another variation other than the dome glass.  When I look at the picture of the Damn Yankee I see the dome lip on the nose but not a clear dome so I assume it might be flat glass. 

Hello, Hawkgrove,

 

According to my readings, the astrodome was installed on the F model from August 1942 for block 27-BO and following, December 1942 for block 15-DL and following, and November 1942 for block 15-VE and following. There would have been conversion kits delivered in units, to equip certain earlier models not provided. 

I was able to see an astrodome location in several photos of B17, but I can not see the blown transparent dome.

 

The astrodome could be opened and removed from inside the aircraft:.

http://heroicrelics.org/champaign-aviation/b-17-restoration-2014-05/dsca4766.jpg.html

You can see in this photo the dome locking clips

I can't imagine the dome open when the B17 is in flight. I deduced that there could be flat windows, probably supplied in replacement kits.

 

Here is a 50 cal mount with another mount:

 

this assembly supports two cal 50 twinned

 

this shot clearly shows on the B17 in the foreground the mounting in the nose, and the empty and unarmed cooling cannons:

 

I am delighted to see your construction. I've built eight B17s myself, and the next one ( The new Airfix) is on the desktop. 

Enjoy in modeling!

 

Regards,

Eric-Snafu35

 

 

 

 

[72modeler]

13 hours ago, Hawkgrove said:

Thanks 72modeler, couldn't open the image but googled the aircraft specifics you sent and think this might be the view.  It is a good clear shot of the port and bracing.   

Yep- that's the one! I will remove the dead link from my post- sorry!

Mike