Phantom's at rest and one other question

[Anthony in NZ]

Hi guys

 

I have 2 questions that I am hoping can be answered by you knowledgeable people here.

1.  I am aware that when Phantoms (Brit ones particularly)are parked their ailerons droop when hyd pressure bleeds off.  However I have seen the odd photo  of a Phantom with a spoiler partially up on one wing.  I dont think this was very common, but would that be because the stick might have been to one side during shut down??  Or perhaps someone manually lifted it to inspect something?  The particular image I saw showed it on a flight line so wasnt sure.

 

The other one is probably the 43 Sqn guys.  

2.  Did the FG.1's ever or often carry the chaff/flare dispensers on the inboard pylons?  Apparently the Falklands (FGR.2's)ones did, but would 43 or 111 FG.1's ever have?

 

Appreciate any feedback on this

 

Cheers Anthony

[Duncan B]

The spoilers would have bled off too so would normally be shut with hydraulics off. The speed brakes would bleed off to an open position too but could snap shut if hydraulics came back on so were always driven open and then a ground lock fitted to the ram before shut down and coming into the hangar (IIRC there was a certain set of circumstances that could allow the speed brakes to snap shut even when driven open, I think it involved loss of electrics with hydraulics powered up would snap them shut (but my memory is maybe playing tricks), so the ground locks were left on unless they were being tested or about to fly).

 

I don't remember seeing any chaff dispensers on the FG.1s up to 1985 when I left Leuchars. Chaff could be stuffed into the speed brakes but I don't remember that being done.

 

Duncan B

[Anthony in NZ]

4 hours ago, Duncan B said:

The spoilers would have bled off too so would normally be shut with hydraulics off. The speed brakes would bleed off to an open position too but could snap shut if hydraulics came back on so were always driven open and then a ground lock fitted to the ram before shut down and coming into the hangar (IIRC there was a certain set of circumstances that could allow the speed brakes to snap shut even when driven open, I think it involved loss of electrics with hydraulics powered up would snap them shut (but my memory is maybe playing tricks), so the ground locks were left on unless they were being tested or about to fly).

 

I don't remember seeing any chaff dispensers on the FG.1s up to 1985 when I left Leuchars. Chaff could be stuffed into the speed brakes but I don't remember that being done.

 

Duncan B

Hi Duncan

Thanks so much for your reply!  That all makes sense and explains why I have seen the odd photo of a spoiler still partially up too. The speed brakes 'snapping up' sounds like a trap for young players.  I heard the hook could drop unexpectidely and was never good practice to walk under it?

 

Thanks again, I really appreciate your reply

 

Cheers Anthony

[sloegin57]

13 hours ago, Duncan B said:

 (IIRC there was a certain set of circumstances that could allow the speed brakes to snap shut even when driven open, I think it involved loss of electrics with hydraulics powered up would snap them shut (but my memory is maybe playing tricks), so the ground locks were left on unless they were being tested or about to fly).

 

Duncan B

You may recall Duncan that that is what happened to a young WRAF Tecbnician at Leuchars, Penny, in ASF who got her left (I think) elbow trapped when the speed brake slammed shut.  Took a while to put the lady back together.  I cannot remember if it was before or after her Fitters Course.

 

Dennis

[Duncan B]

On 11/20/2021 at 4:54 PM, Anthony in NZ said:

Hi Duncan

Thanks so much for your reply!  That all makes sense and explains why I have seen the odd photo of a spoiler still partially up too. The speed brakes 'snapping up' sounds like a trap for young players.  I heard the hook could drop unexpectidely and was never good practice to walk under it?

 

Thanks again, I really appreciate your reply

 

Cheers Anthony

Through my working life I always treated anything with high energy systems something akin to working as a circus lion tamer, you had to respect them and keep one eye on them turning nasty without warning so if it took an extra second or two to walk around rather than under that's what I did. Thankfully I never had any experience of them but "hangar pilots" were the most dangerous types, fiddling with controls could lead to nasty accidents.

On 11/21/2021 at 2:05 AM, sloegin57 said:

You may recall Duncan that that is what happened to a young WRAF Tecbnician at Leuchars, Penny, in ASF who got her left (I think) elbow trapped when the speed brake slammed shut.  Took a while to put the lady back together.  I cannot remember if it was before or after her Fitters Course.

 

Dennis

Hi Dennis, was she a 'sooty'? If so I worked with her in the Engine Bays after her Fitter's course.

 

Duncan B

[Phone Phixer]

On 11/19/2021 at 11:12 PM, Anthony in NZ said:

Did the FG.1's ever or often carry the chaff/flare dispensers on the inboard pylons?  Apparently the Falklands (FGR.2's)ones did, but would 43 or 111 FG.1's ever have?

I never worked on FG1's, so cannot say definitely. But I don't think they ever did.

The section in my Phantom course notes for AN/ALE 40 has photocopies from the AP. That AP is 101B-0902, which only refers to FGR2. 101B-0900 was common to both, 101B-0901 was FG1 only.

It was primarily the UK based squadrons plus the Falklands aircraft that had them. Neither 19 or 92 sqns in Germany  had chaff and flare until we started receiving airframes from the likes of 29 sqn when they re-equipped with Tonka F3's.

It made our aircrew very happy to have a new toy.

 

Rob.

[Anthony in NZ]

@Phone Phixer @Duncan B and @sloegin57

 

Thanks to you all for your responses, I really appreciate you guys sharing your knowledge!  I shall apply what I can to my 32nd FG.1 build

 

Cheers Anthony

[Scout712]

The spoilers could be pulled up when hydraulic pumps were inop (I.e. engines shut down / no external hydraulic test dolley connected). Our (Luftwaffe) maintenance crews did postflight checks on the inside of the spoilers where for instance the actuator for the aileron could be seen. Quite some force was required to pull them up though. The spoilers crept close due to gravity or could be pushed down again. 

Speedbrales crept open only about five fingers as soon as electrical power was lost and no airflow pressure kept them close. You could pull the open but I rarely saw completely opened speedbrakes. BTW, Luftwaffe Phantoms had red colored inner speedbrakes with red actuaturs but the well itself was a dark zinc chromate green.

B/r

Michael

[Troffa]

Late to the party, as ever, I  confirm no Chaff or Flare dispensers on the 43 Sqn FG-1's right up to the point we traded them in for Tornado. I have an (increasingly distant) memory of some ex-228 OCU FGR-2's that had the Pylon mounted dispensers, but that was in 1988 or 89 right at the end of our Phantom ops. 

 

Funny thing about speed brakes- we occasionally had to put packets of chaff in front of the Speed Brake actuator when the Crews were doing a spot of "Harry Doggers" Fighter training. 

Crew would start up, drop Brakes, Man 'B' gingerly places small cardboard packet of chaff in front of actuator, crew shuts Brake. 

Never liked that job due to the very rapid closure discussed above, and the implications of inhaling some chaff if the packet spilled. Health and Safety would have palpitations if we tried it now 🙂 

 

Troffa

 

 

[Anthony in NZ]

On 11/24/2021 at 9:34 AM, Scout712 said:

The spoilers could be pulled up when hydraulic pumps were inop (I.e. engines shut down / no external hydraulic test dolley connected). Our (Luftwaffe) maintenance crews did postflight checks on the inside of the spoilers where for instance the actuator for the aileron could be seen. Quite some force was required to pull them up though. The spoilers crept close due to gravity or could be pushed down again. 

Speedbrales crept open only about five fingers as soon as electrical power was lost and no airflow pressure kept them close. You could pull the open but I rarely saw completely opened speedbrakes. BTW, Luftwaffe Phantoms had red colored inner speedbrakes with red actuaturs but the well itself was a dark zinc chromate green.

B/r

Michael

Thanks Michael, great information!

 

On 11/27/2021 at 7:35 AM, Troffa said:

Late to the party, as ever, I  confirm no Chaff or Flare dispensers on the 43 Sqn FG-1's right up to the point we traded them in for Tornado. I have an (increasingly distant) memory of some ex-228 OCU FGR-2's that had the Pylon mounted dispensers, but that was in 1988 or 89 right at the end of our Phantom ops. 

 

Funny thing about speed brakes- we occasionally had to put packets of chaff in front of the Speed Brake actuator when the Crews were doing a spot of "Harry Doggers" Fighter training. 

Crew would start up, drop Brakes, Man 'B' gingerly places small cardboard packet of chaff in front of actuator, crew shuts Brake. 

Never liked that job due to the very rapid closure discussed above, and the implications of inhaling some chaff if the packet spilled. Health and Safety would have palpitations if we tried it now 🙂 

 

Troffa

 

 

Thank you Sir!

That confirms it, I wont put them on my 32nd 43 Sqn build

 

Cheers guys, much appreciated

[Scooby]

On 11/20/2021 at 9:54 AM, Anthony in NZ said:

Hi Duncan

Thanks so much for your reply!  That all makes sense and explains why I have seen the odd photo of a spoiler still partially up too. The speed brakes 'snapping up' sounds like a trap for young players.  I heard the hook could drop unexpectidely and was never good practice to walk under it?

 

Thanks again, I really appreciate your reply

 

Cheers Anthony

Never a good practice to go under any hook. We treated them like and unloaded gun.

[Scooby]

On 11/23/2021 at 1:34 PM, Scout712 said:

The spoilers could be pulled up when hydraulic pumps were inop (I.e. engines shut down / no external hydraulic test dolley connected). Our (Luftwaffe) maintenance crews did postflight checks on the inside of the spoilers where for instance the actuator for the aileron could be seen. Quite some force was required to pull them up though. The spoilers crept close due to gravity or could be pushed down again. 

Speedbrales crept open only about five fingers as soon as electrical power was lost and no airflow pressure kept them close. You could pull the open but I rarely saw completely opened speedbrakes. BTW, Luftwaffe Phantoms had red colored inner speedbrakes with red actuaturs but the well itself was a dark zinc chromate green.

B/r

Michael

Similar to the Hornet, we would push up the flaps to drain the water inside them after an airframe wash, it took considerable force and they’d eventually bleed back down.

[Anthony in NZ]

14 minutes ago, Scooby said:

Never a good practice to go under any hook. We treated them like and unloaded gun.

Thank you.....totally makes sense!

 

Actually whilst I am thinking about it (and maybe a question for Ordinance guys) 

 

Might a Phantom carry the blue ballast shapes in the fwd wells and Drill (or live) Sparrows/Skyflash in the rear wells at the same time?

 

Sorry for all the questions