Paul J Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Maybe just luck.😐 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 47 minutes ago, Paul J said: If that is a genuine piece of footage my question is why was the 'barn door' behind the cockpit open during a standard take off run up the ramp??? That's how STOVL works. You translate some of the fan thrust to the lift vector to compensate for the loss of lift coming from the wings at low airspeed. The Harrier used exactly the same technique with nozzles tilted downwards for short takeoff. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junglierating Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Paul J said: Sounds a stupid way of taking off with things sticking up and sticking out and pointing downwards affecting airflow over the airframe to assist conventional take off!!! To me it seems to do the opposite to normal take off procedures. Crazy. Bring back proper Sea Harriers. Its all to do with transision from Jet borne to wing borne flight....and er SHAR has had its day although Id wager Blue vixen could still compete....but technology moves on 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Poultney Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 4 hours ago, Beermonster1958 said: I don't know the speed at which an F-35 hits the ramp. I heard it was about 40 knots slower than its usual takeoff speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Poultney Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Also unconfirmed reports that it was ZM152 involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatFlyHalf Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 So can anyone tell me how many Sea harriers £100 million would have bought? Even improved ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 1 hour ago, FatFlyHalf said: So can anyone tell me how many Sea harriers £100 million would have bought? Even improved ones. in today's money or back then? Last Sea Harries FA.2s were build in the early 1990s "In 1990, the Navy ordered 18 new-build FA2s,[18] at a unit cost of around £12 million" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_Sea_Harrier#Variants but consider this being late 80s technology! you would not want to fight around with them anylonger! today probably 2, max 3 of them... another story of course would be upgrading the GR.9s with a radar, as were the US/ Spanish/ Italian AV-8Bs to PLUS configuration.... but those were Harrier IIs, not Harrier Is! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 4 hours ago, FatFlyHalf said: So can anyone tell me how many Sea harriers £100 million would have bought? I expect people back in the 1930s were complaining at the cost of Spitfires. "What's wrong with Hawker Furies? They're more manoeuvrable!" 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatFlyHalf Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Alan P said: I expect people back in the 1930s were complaining at the cost of Spitfires. "What's wrong with Hawker Furies? They're more manoeuvrable!" Yup. I agree. But there comes a point where the equation of cost and effectiveness is important. And a fundamental question is; are these aircraft any more cost effective than a developed Harrier ? And the UK is no longer the power it once was. So historical comparisons are somewhat inconsequential to my fundamental question. Could he UK have more aircraft that if we bought there American machines and the loss of one have less of an impact on our air force ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 33 minutes ago, FatFlyHalf said: And a fundamental question is; are these aircraft any more cost effective than a developed Harrier ? That is very, very far from being a fundamental question. There is simply no question at all, in any modern consideration, where that could be a realistic value judgement in capability or cost-effectiveness. I'm not being dismissive, it's just that comparison with the FA2 Sea Harrier (or the A-10, or any of the other frequent comparisons) is pitifully far behind any true assessment of the F-35's capabilities. To argue comparative capabilities of legacy Gen 3/4 airframes vs maturing Gen 5 on the basis of cost is like asking why a Mars bar is cheaper than a Ferrari. They're just not comparable. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junglierating Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, FatFlyHalf said: So can anyone tell me how many Sea harriers £100 million would have bought? Even improved ones. The biggest problem with the SHAR was that it was limited by its dimensions....you could get a pegasus 106*in the hole but that was it later incarnations of the donkey fitted to GRs and AV8B wouldnt fit .Oh yeah and it was a sixties airframe with 70/80 avionics and next to sod all in the form of sensors other than the active radar and couldnt carry a particularly useful load. For all its issues F35 is a different beast. Edited November 30, 2021 by junglierating 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 20 hours ago, exdraken said: The "barn doors" are up because this is Short Take Off mode using the not fully tilted main nozzle and the lift fan together in order to achieve max take off performance Thinking a bit more about the barn door: As soon that there is forward speed, this door also shoves air into the lift fan... so it is not onky sticking out but should add to its efficiency.... Drag vs increased fan airflow ..... Anyone doing the maths part please?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nheather Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 Sea Harrier vs F-35B Two factors (there are many others) are range and payload Sea Harrier 288 miles and 8000 pounds F-35B 1,000 miles and 18,000 pounds Basically, to use the harrier in a strike role you would have to sit the carrier in the back yard of the country that you are attacking. P.S. I’m no expert, just ripped these numbers off wiki. Cheers, Nigel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junglierating Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, nheather said: Sea Harrier vs F-35B Two factors (there are many others) are range and payload Sea Harrier 288 miles and 8000 pounds F-35B 1,000 miles and 18,000 pounds Basically, to use the harrier in a strike role you would have to sit the carrier in the back yard of the country that you are attacking. Cheers, Nigel 8000 ibs you'll be lucky....no chance Apologies I've succumbed to thread drift😑 Edited December 1, 2021 by junglierating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 This payload numbers includes the fuel? ( external and internal?) Are they comparable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 There's this thread, if you want to keep discussing general F-35 questions/myths/irrelevant comparisons...(spoiler alert... we've been having the same circular discussions for years) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted December 1, 2021 Author Share Posted December 1, 2021 According to the Daily Fail, the airframe has been 'found'. I didn't bother to read any of the garbage other than that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairystick Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 On 11/29/2021 at 5:28 AM, colin said: Well if it is just a RBF cover I bet the tags a lot bigger now than before the incident 😉 One can imagine that the boldface items on the checklist has increased somewhat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junglierating Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, hairystick said: Edited December 3, 2021 by junglierating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalkeEins Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 On 12/1/2021 at 6:43 AM, nheather said: F-35B 1,000 miles and 18,000 pounds Basically, to use the harrier in a strike role you would have to sit the carrier in the back yard of the country that you are attacking. P.S. I’m no expert, just ripped these numbers off wiki. Neither am I, but can I just point out that the launch radius of a Tu-22 with the updated AS4 Kitchen is now up to 600 miles (doubled)! The carrier(s) we have still look mighty vulnerable.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 With this recent expensive loss of this F-35, it sounds like a bit more than a 'drop in the ocean'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 Hello, FalkeEins Tu-22 M3M version can be armed with up to four Kh-47M2 Kinzhal ALBMs. It has been claimed carrier plane + missile operational range is about 3000 km, although that sounds a bit high to me. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 9 hours ago, FalkeEins said: Neither am I, but can I just point out that the launch radius of a Tu-22 with the updated AS4 Kitchen is now up to 600 miles (doubled)! The carrier(s) we have still look mighty vulnerable.. Carrier group ECM and anti-missile defence is more than equal to anything in the current Russian inventory. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, Alan P said: Carrier group ECM and anti-missile defence is more than equal to anything in the current Russian inventory. I guess that at least is what one would hope... but as we all know,. no system is perfect... nowbody will want to try... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 3 hours ago, exdraken said: I guess that at least is what one would hope... It's based on more than hope, obviously 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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