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Brian Lanes Spitfire P9386 QV-K. Underside tech stencils or not?


Lindsey C

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Hi guys,

 

Am getting close to decaling on 1:72 P9386 QV-K. Brian Lanes yellow spinnered Spitfire. A common build and a nice one for the BoB shelf.

 

Looking around at other builds, they show technical stenciling on underside. Eduard's 1:48 kit instructions state that "no stenciling is seen on the bottom surfaces". I am now wondering should I run with underside stencils or not? 🧐

 

Any thoughts or further info out there. I have not managed to find any other reference than Eduard's regarding the lack of bottom surface stencils.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Lindsey

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Are there any photographic references for the aeroplane at the time that your model depicts?  Failing that are there any written descriptions of it at the same time?  There are your starters for ten; it may be worth e-mailing Eduard to ask what, if anything, they had as references.  They must have had something to work from to have made the assertion that they did in the instructions.

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42 minutes ago, stever219 said:

Are there any photographic references for the aeroplane at the time that your model depicts?

this is the only one I believe

46916207091_0e28ddea2d_b.jpg19 Squadron 41 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

 

that the port UC leg is still Night shows that it's a 'sky' repaint, so depends if the stencils were reapplied after that.  Hard to tell, but nothgin obvious.

Also, spinner, suggest white,   not yellow.   It's lighter in tone than any yellow in the picture,  and while examples of flight coloured spinners exist, no other 19 Sq planes at this late date show them, while white was used for the C/O aircraft, see S/Ldr Peter Townsend Hurricane P3166/VY-Q 

This dates pre war,  pics of 111 Sq when they first got Hurricanes show flight colours of the lower part of the 111, but the C/O has all white 111. 

 

Also, presuming that the date IS correct, Sep 1940, and it's a famous photo,  and has underwing roundels, so must be after mid August, by this stage the Luftwaffe are using yellow noses are quick recognition,  making a yellow spinnered Spitfire even more unlikely.

 

HTH

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Thanks @Troy Smith & @stever219. I have this photo already downloaded Troy 🙂.

 

I see no definition or trace of a stencil on the outboard, lower side of the port aileron. This has me going with the Eduard "no stenciling is seen on the bottom surfaces" 👌

 

I agree completely Troy, with your comment on the spinner colour/tone. Could it be the way the sun is catching it? I don't think so. The 'Sky' paint on the port lower nose is bright there too but it is at a greater angle to the the sun than the spinner. The shaded, lowest part of the spinner in the shot is only as dull/bright as the yellow in the fuselage roundel in full sunlight! From what I gather the yellow spinner came with the aircraft from no.7 OTU to replace the troublesome MK1b 'Canon' Spitfires. It seems strange to me that they would have left it yellow. I can more understand a white spinner for the C/O. Would I be instantly expelled from Britmodeller if I painted it white? I have never seen a white spinner on a model of P9386! Or would I have a chance to explain my actions before I am 'excommunicated'? I am seriously tempted! 😂

 

Thanks guys,

 

Lindsey

Edited by Lindsey C
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54 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

this is the only one I believe

46916207091_0e28ddea2d_b.jpg19 Squadron 41 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

 

that the port UC leg is still Night shows that it's a 'sky' repaint, so depends if the stencils were reapplied after that.  Hard to tell, but nothgin obvious.

Also, spinner, suggest white,   not yellow.   It's lighter in tone than any yellow in the picture,  and while examples of flight coloured spinners exist, no other 19 Sq planes at this late date show them, while white was used for the C/O aircraft, see S/Ldr Peter Townsend Hurricane P3166/VY-Q 

This dates pre war,  pics of 111 Sq when they first got Hurricanes show flight colours of the lower part of the 111, but the C/O has all white 111. 

 

Also, presuming that the date IS correct, Sep 1940, and it's a famous photo,  and has underwing roundels, so must be after mid August, by this stage the Luftwaffe are using yellow noses are quick recognition,  making a yellow spinnered Spitfire even more unlikely.

 

HTH

 

This photo of Lane with P9386 shows that the spinner is a darker tone than the sky(?) undersides..

mid_CH_001325_1.jpg?action=e&cat=Photogr THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN 1940. © IWM (CH 1322) IWM Non Commercial License

 

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19 minutes ago, wmcgill said:

This photo of Lane with P9386 shows that the spinner is a darker tone than the sky(?) undersides..

Thanks @wmcgill How do we know it is actually P9386 from that shot? The website just states that it is Brian Lane standing 'in front of a Spitfire at RAF Fowlmere, September 1940'. I prefer the shot with the serial number. 🙂

 

Regards,

 

Lindsey

Edited by Lindsey C
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21 minutes ago, Lindsey C said:

Thanks @wmcgill How do we know it is actually P9386 from that shot? The website just states that it is Brian Lane standing 'in front of a Spitfire at RAF Fowlmere, September 1940'.

 

Regards,

 

Lindsey

 

Some fingerprint like scratches etc faintly visible on the port side cowling in the side view photo and this one

 mid_CH_001324.jpg?action=e&cat=Photograp THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN 1940. © IWM (CH 1324) IWM Non Commercial License

 

 

Edited by wmcgill
clarity
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I think the answers to the questions are; 

No stencils underneath. When repainted from the black and white scheme, stencils were hardly ever retained as they were at war and the groundcrew knew where to trestle etc.

Yellow spinner, (possibly a slightly different mix, with less red) the side view print is lighter on the left hand side and also the surface of the spinner is angled more towards the sun due to the curve, than the roundel. The second picture backs this up as we're pretty certain it's the same aircraft.

Being a stop-gap replacement, P9386 was only with 19 Squadron for a week from 4 September 1940.  Brian Lane only flew it twice in combat on 7 and 11 September before the squadron got newer X series Spitfires.  So the photo was most likely taken during that period.

The widespread use of yellow noses on Me 109s only started on 7 September so any reaction to that would have been after 7 September.  Of course, the groundcrew may well have been in the process of repainting the spinner back to black just after the photos were taken, who knows!

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I agree that aircraft repainted from the original undersides will not have carried stencils, but this does open the difficult question of just what colour the undersides will have been painted..  Upon which many have opinions but facts are few, and rarely attached to specific units.

 

Perhaps this is just being playful, but a case can be made for Sky Blue underside with replacement Sky spinner?  A bit early for that, maybe, so stick with Yellow?

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Just a quick note about the two photos of apparently the same aircraft.

 

The nose camo demarcation on the side view clearly shows it above the panel line, which is unusual, whereas on the second photo it is exactly where the side panel ends suggesting they are not the same aircraft, or at best the same aircraft but at different points in its history.

 

Just a thought.

 

Regards

Colin.

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20 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

this is the only one I believe

46916207091_0e28ddea2d_b.jpg19 Squadron 41 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

 

that the port UC leg is still Night shows that it's a 'sky' repaint, so depends if the stencils were reapplied after that.  Hard to tell, but nothgin obvious.

Also, spinner, suggest white,   not yellow.   It's lighter in tone than any yellow in the picture,  and while examples of flight coloured spinners exist, no other 19 Sq planes at this late date show them, while white was used for the C/O aircraft, see S/Ldr Peter Townsend Hurricane P3166/VY-Q 

This dates pre war,  pics of 111 Sq when they first got Hurricanes show flight colours of the lower part of the 111, but the C/O has all white 111. 

Also, presuming that the date IS correct, Sep 1940, and it's a famous photo,  and has underwing roundels, so must be after mid August, by this stage the Luftwaffe are using yellow noses are quick recognition,  making a yellow spinnered Spitfire even more unlikely.

 

HTH

I'm not entirely convinced by the repaint based on the u/c legs. I note that there appears to be a great deal of streaking on that port wing underside - is that consistent with a repaint and the operations of the aircraft?

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1 hour ago, fishplanebeer said:

Sorry, just to amend slightly having looked more closely, the demarcation on the upper side view looks curved and probably extends below the panel join whereas in the front view it is definitely along the panel join.

 

Regards

Colin.

It may look curved, but IMHO it follows the panel join. There are examples of Spitfires where the upper camouflage extends below the panel join, but this is not what we are seeing here.

 

/Finn

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24 minutes ago, Phoenix44 said:

I'm not entirely convinced by the repaint based on the u/c legs.

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p008.html

P9386 Ia 569 EA MIIIFF 1-3-40 AMDP Airspeed trls with company test pilots 6-3-40 38MU 11-5-40 257Sq 18-5-40 19Sq 'QV-K' 3-9-40 152Sq 26-9-40 58OTU 23-3-41 Scottish Aviation 12-9-41 52OTU 17-11-41

 

So built before Sky came in in June 1940.   Port wheel hub and leg are left in Night when undersides repainted into in June 1940.

 

Maintenance film still

Port wing and UC leg in Night

48992641552_39cc4f653c_b.jpgSpitfire Mk.I maintenance film UC well colour by losethekibble, on Flickr.

 

and, for contrast

Spitfire Mk.II, port leg and hub in Sky

46916208661_a40a8a0c49_b.jpg19 Squadron 34 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

 

 

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On 11/16/2021 at 10:36 PM, Troy Smith said:

that the port UC leg is still Night shows that it's a 'sky' repaint

Now, there is another thought! I am going to go on the side shot photograph since I know it is definitely P9386. This means I need to paint matt black over the sky paint I have on the inside of the port leg cover! And also the sides of the port Wheel Well. Which probably means I need to do the same on the Starboard side in white to cover the Sky paint there. I presume no.7 OTU aircraft were in standard pre BoB Black/White scheme. They must have been judging by the picture. I wonder was the sky paint applied at No.7 OTU a while before No.19 Sqd accepted delivery (which might account for the streaking seen underneath) or would it have been applied at RAF Fowlmere? This aircraft must have been painted sky very late (No.19 Sqd had it for one week in September) judging by @Troy Smith's observation of the undercarriage since the order came in, in early June for all fighter aircraft to be so painted. Initial slow supplies of the new paint were sorted around the end of August when it seems supply was not an issue thereafter. Hence different adapted mixes probably varying from Squadron to Squadron before late august! Was it late being painted Sky because OTU aircraft were last on the list to be painted so? Is there any date on the photograph of the side that anyone is aware of? It must have been Sky paint rather than any other to my mind since one would think every base would have had the paint readily available to them by September 1940.

 

Lindsey

Edited by Lindsey C
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2 hours ago, wmcgill said:

What were Hurricane equipped 257 Squadron supposedly doing with P9386 for 3 & 1/2 months?

 

257 was initally intended to be a Spitfire squadron, but was one of three that got switched to Hurricanes.  Most of the Spits went to OTUs around mid June, and 19 Squadron got most of their "new" Spit Is from OTU use in early September, when the cannon Spits were taken off ops.  So, probably P9386 was with an OTU in the interim, unless she'd gotten bent and was down for repairs.

Edited by gingerbob
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Looks white to me too in that side on shot.

 

Could it have been yellow at the OTU as a ‘bounce’ aircraft, then repainted white later at 19 Squadron after it was recognised that Me 109’s were using yellow as a recognition feature?

Edited by Peter Roberts
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I am really struggling to see how it is yellow in that side shot. Can't be Sky. Too early. It IS a late BoB Spitfire given the under-wing roundel position so September 1940 fits in with the supposed date of the picture. Look at the yellow tips of the props especially the upper prop front of yellow (allied to the yellow in fuselage roundel). I think it is white.

 

Here is a scenario🧐: Aircraft was given it's underside Sky repaint most likely at No.7 OTU sometime after early June. Probably later than front line squadrons since it resided then at an OTU. It still gives it some operational time to develop some streaking as seen on lower port wing. It Was delivered to No.19 squadron on the 4th September. On the 5th, Lane was promoted to C.O. on the demise of the former C.O. so they painted the spinner soon after being unaware the aircraft would be sent on to 152 Squadron.

 

Regards,

 

Lindsey

Edited by Lindsey C
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1 hour ago, Lindsey C said:

Can't be Sky. Too early

One thought, when the orders came through to paint the underside,  this may have been taken to include the spinner.   Some of the July 1940 17 Sq Hurricane appear to have a spinner in the same colour as the underside, though these maybe flight colours. Or both.  See here, YB-A, F, H all good candidates for flight colours,  YB-W and C - Sky (or same as underside)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144949377@N05/albums/72157678154026658

 

Back to QV-K,  Fundekals have this on one of their Spitfire sheets

the instructions are here, see page 47.

https://fundekals.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/FD48018_Inst.pdf

 

Fundekals have it as Sky.

 

I have made a suggestion with regards to a precedent for white

P3166 VY-Q, July 1940

33880446008_8d1fa14ce1_b.jpg85 Squadron 52 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

 

Spinner is white with a black backplate

 

On 16/11/2021 at 23:25, Lindsey C said:

Would I be instantly expelled from Britmodeller if I painted it white?

I 've seen worse....  seriously, your model,  as the above shows, there are cases for it being yellow, white or some form of "Sky" , your choice.  

 

On 17/11/2021 at 20:01, Lindsey C said:

And also the sides of the port Wheel Well. Which probably means I need to do the same on the Starboard side in white to cover the Sky paint there.

look at the well photo I posted.  it's basically 'external' and would have been repainted,  while the leg is not something you want to just paint, given it's function. 

still from training film

(and it helps if you add photo ...  :doh: )

50255159582_c8b0c9a315_b.jpgSpitfire Mk.I maintenance film Sky repaint reel 5 by losethekibble, on Flickr

The 609 aircraft which has just been repainted into 'sky', was B/W earlier, 

note roundel grinning through,  wheel hub white,  what can be seen of well wall is same as underside.   Note UC door in sun, compare to under cowl in sun,  door (and leg) still white.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

look at the well photo I posted.  it's basically 'external' and would have been repainted,

Oops, yes Troy. My error. I forget the outer wheel well shows when undercarriage is up! Haven't built one that was flying yet! 😂

 

Where did the yellow spinner idea originally come from anybody? It seems to be the norm.

 

Thanks @Troy Smith as ever for the great info. Most helpful. I am learning quickly. First coat of green on over the dark earth so spinner decision will be soon (though in my heart I know what's going to happen)😂

 

On 11/17/2021 at 8:10 AM, Mark Postlethwaite said:

P9386 was only with 19 Squadron for a week from 4 September 1940.  Brian Lane only flew it twice in combat on 7 and 11 September

According to http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p008.html - FF 1-3-40 AMDP Airspeed trls with company test pilots 6-3-40 38MU 11-5-40 257Sq 18-5-40 19Sq 'QV-K' 3-9-40 152Sq 26-9-40 58OTU 23-3-41 Scottish Aviation 12-9-41 52OTU 17-11-41 57OTU 29-8-43 dived into ground East Lothian CE 5-5-44.

 

Am I reading this wrong? It reads to me that P9386 was delivered to No.19 Squadron on 18th May 1940.

Rgds,

 

Lindsey

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