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I don’t understand this universe any more


Heather Kay
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On 12/13/2021 at 3:44 PM, treker_ed said:

(So much for Hex, RGB & CMYK references being industry standards for paint colour matching - neither place wanted to know despite advertising the fact that you take them a sample or reference and they will match your colour! No they dont, they will only match in their range, and only a near enough match, not an exact match!)😒

 

 

They aren't - hex* is more or less mince. RGB is for illuminating visual display unit pixels in different proportions and CMYK is for printing with inks. The paint industry uses CIELAB colourspace for objective measurement, but you can only spectrophotometer analyse a dry sample. The most expensive software packages going can estimate the proportions of pigment required for a CIELAB match out of a high-grade paint dispensing machine, but it's seldom bang on, so you have to take a sample at controlled film thickness, dry it out, spectrophotometer measure it and compare the results with the target. The experienced colour matching operator can then add additional pigment in minimum doses until a second, third or even fourth sample matches the target closely enough. If it's for a commercial customer who may need more, they'll then save the final formulation on that machine's database - and it'll be valid until a fresh batch of pigments are loaded into the carousel in the machine. Whether another batch after fresh pigment goes in also matches depends on how consistent your pigment supplier is. Even if the pigment is exactly the same colour, there can be small (but big enough!) differences in the staining power of it so 1ml per litre may have a different effect now than it did with the last batch.

 

It is possible to buy machines pre-loaded with BS381C formulations already on the database, but it costs (a lot) more than just buying the basic RAL formulations. All the above waffle about batch consistency still applies in either case - hence why they always tell you to ensure you buy enough for what you're doing, and not to come back expecting them to be able to make an identical batch at a later date :)

 

 

*Not mince exactly, but it's not usually that useful unless converted back to something else.

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32 minutes ago, IanHx said:

I was looking for a single word in American English which means "for a moment". In most English dialects you would use "momentarily" but apparently in American English this means "in a moment". I suppose 'briefly' is as close as I can manage.

I think it was Terry Pratchett who noted an interesting use of the word "momentarily" to take advantage of this confusion.

 

"I will do it momentarily" can either mean I will do it straight away, or alternatively at some indeterminate time in the future when I will give it very little effort! 

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5 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

The most expensive software packages going can estimate the proportions of pigment required for a CIELAB match out of a high-grade paint dispensing machine, but it's seldom bang on, so you have to take a sample at controlled film thickness, dry it out, spectrophotometer measure it and compare the results with the target. The experienced colour matching operator can then add additional pigment in minimum doses until a second, third or even fourth sample matches the target closely enough. If it's for a commercial customer who may need more, they'll then save the final formulation on that machine's database - and it'll be valid until a fresh batch of pigments are loaded into the carousel in the machine. Whether another batch after fresh pigment goes in also matches depends on how consistent your pigment supplier is. Even if the pigment is exactly the same colour, there can be small (but big enough!) differences in the staining power of it so 1ml per litre may have a different effect now than it did with the last batch.

 

Thanks for the insight it begs the question that If the best software, a high grade paint dispensing machine and an experienced colour matching operator can only achieve a 'close enough' match under controled conditions doesn't it make a mockery of all those arguments discussions around exact matches to known swatches.

If as little as 1 mm can make a 'big enough' difference doesn't it also negate any claim that there was no difference between paint batches mixed in less less controllable times (WW2).

 

6 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

It is possible to buy machines pre-loaded with BS381C formulations already on the database, but it costs (a lot) more than just buying the basic RAL formulations.

 

Are the machine German and come with a built in RAL licence for the initial database? The additional fees for BS381c probably being the licence fee (plus a suppliers mark up) to BSI to enforce their IP/copyright fees.

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7 hours ago, IanHx said:

find themselves fleetingly airborne as they were thrown out

"Fleetingly: is not bad; better than "briefly" - "transiently" is also a possibility.

"Briefly" is used more in a conditional sense than the others - "Dinosaurs ruled the earth for 60 million years; mankind was briefly ascendant until their 60.000 years ended in 2100 as the planet overheated."

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1 hour ago, Circloy said:

 

Thanks for the insight it begs the question that If the best software, a high grade paint dispensing machine and an experienced colour matching operator can only achieve a 'close enough' match under controled conditions doesn't it make a mockery of all those arguments discussions around exact matches to known swatches.

If as little as 1 mm can make a 'big enough' difference doesn't it also negate any claim that there was no difference between paint batches mixed in less less controllable times (WW2).

 

 

Are the machine German and come with a built in RAL licence for the initial database? The additional fees for BS381c probably being the licence fee (plus a suppliers mark up) to BSI to enforce their IP/copyright fees.

 

Probably not for this thread but in the grand scheme of things, no, for several reasons:

Modern machines use a limited number of pigments and try to make everything from them. In mass manufacture by the 45 gallon drum one weighs in only 2 or 3 specific pigments. I have to be very precise or people understandably get upset. Usually our fresh batches come out fine but not always. B&Q can repeatably make something good enough straight off the machine and all domestic customers will be happy that it looks like the little card they chose from the big display of colours. The problem is one of guarantee that when Mr Angry runs out half way across a wall the second tub they mix might not perfectly match the half painted bit he's already done. The larger the batch, the more accurate the results tend to be. The smallest we can make is 1 litre and they need more intervention to maintain my reputation than a 2.5 litre batch does which in turn is more troublesome than a 5 litre batch. There is a minimum quantity of pigment a modern machine can dispense. It's very small, but with strong pigments it can still be enough to bother the discerning production tech (or me). Manufacturers making bulk batches for Avro or Vickers or Cammel Laird shipyard aren't making small batches. Ship paint formulae were written per Hundredweight.

 

No paint manufacturer will ever claim every batch is identical, but that doesn't mean the characteristics of paint manufactured to a formula will change significantly. One needs to add in or just substitute the wrong pigments for that.

 

People are attracted to the idea that there was no way to control colour as it gives a ready made excuse for monumental screw-ups. If you're building a model of a modern warship then to be realistic your BS381C-676 paintwork will be a subtle patchwork of very slightly different shades as bits have been touched up with different colours. This distinction isn't a technical justification for painting one Type 45 destroyer in Humbrol 64 and another in Humbrol 127 and claiming both are correct because not all paint batches are absolutely identical.

 

For a model, I actually agree that applied paint will vary a bit in practise. I'm concerned about being taken out of context or selectively quoted in future though because I'm absolutely not saying "Anything goes". There is an exception to every rule and that is USAAF Olive Drab - perhaps the worst controlled paint colour in recent history. That doesn't mean nobody tried or cared though. :)

 

Some of the popular machines are made in Italy actually but not all. RAL is commonly used in industry. I don't know why - my day job industry of North Sea oil & gas uses a fruit salad of design codes as far as nationality is concerned and most of the paint systems prescribed on the fabrication drawings is denoted with RAL colours. For those purposes nobody really checks the colours though - so long as a pipe spool for the firewater system can be told apart from hydrocarbon service that'll do and the QC effort goes on checking material certification, welding and NDT records and of course dimensions... My experience of the BSi is that everything costs a fortune and one never feels they got value for money from whatever arrived! I think my 1996 BS381C cost £150 and the paint chips inside are too cheaply made to be good enough for colour matching. There are tabulated colour coordinates in the booklet though which is what I work to.

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2 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I'm concerned about being taken out of context or selectively quoted in future though because I'm absolutely not saying "Anything goes".

Who would do that!😃

2 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I'm saying  For a model, I actually agree that in practise "Anything goes" .

All his own words - just re-arranged a little! 🤣 in the spirit of Xmas and this thread.

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14 hours ago, Pigpen said:

I think it was Terry Pratchett who noted an interesting use of the word "momentarily" to take advantage of this confusion.

 

"I will do it momentarily" can either mean I will do it straight away, or alternatively at some indeterminate time in the future when I will give it very little effort! 

 

I've always thought that the meaning of the word mañana (in its tomorrow context) actually means "not today"

Edited by Jo NZ
punctuation's
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2 minutes ago, Jo NZ said:

 

I've always thought that the meaning of the word mañana (in it's tomorrow context) actually means "not today"

 

Well I live in Texas, and speak some Spanish, and yes, in a colloquial sense, manana (I don't know how to put the tilde over the first 'n'!) can mean something like 'later'.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

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There are so many linguistic or grammatical or spelling inaccuracies out there that bug the daylights out of me, I think sometimes I'm actually, unknowingly, somewhere on the autism spectrum. I'll mention only one, which is simple lack of courtesy, nothing to do with evolution of the language:

I buy a cup of coffee at the drivethrough. She hands it to me. I say, "Thank you!". She says, "No problem!". I think, "There better not be a problem - if so, I want to know about it. It's me and others like me who pay your wages...".

 

John

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16 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

I was looking for a single word in American English which means "for a moment". In most English dialects you would use "momentarily" but apparently in American English this means "in a moment". I suppose 'briefly' is as close as I can manage.

It can be used to mean either:

 

1 for a very short time : as he passed Jenny's door, he paused momentarily.
2 at any moment; very soon : my husband will be here to pick me up momentarily.

 

It's an adverb, so the meaning would depend on the verb it modifies.

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Momentarily - American usage is different to the rest of the world, although I imagine the American usage will be, in time, dominant. Most dictionaries agree on the following summary -

 

The original meaning of the adverb momentarily was "lasting for brief time": "She was daydreaming and momentarily lost her train of thought." Today, the word is frequently used to mean "very soon." A waiter might say to a hungry customer, "Your food will be ready momentarily."

When something is just about to happen, it will happen momentarily. Just before a concert begins, an announcer will often tell the audience it's starting momentarily. But if you pause your movie momentarily so you can go grab a snack, that means you will put the movie on hold for a short time. The "lasting for a moment" meaning of this word is attested from the 1650s; it wasn't used to mean "at any moment" until the 1920s.

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I don't know why you need to resort to an ASRAAM fired from a Typhoon to take out a drone -  sounds like over-kill 🤣

Wonder if they paint an extra tiny kill marking on the side of the aircraft ?

Edited by IanHx
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 16/12/2021 at 00:05, Learstang said:

manana (I don't know how to put the tilde over the first 'n'!)

 

If you're using a Windows based PC go to Windows Tools and select Character Map which gives a whole spectrum of different characters.  I've pinned it to my taskbar as I find it very useful when typing a French word when I'm not using Word or a similar application.

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On 11/22/2021 at 9:13 AM, ckw said:

After all many of our English speakers don't even have a 2nd language!

There's a language other than English?! Why was I not informed?

 

Chris. 

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I like a metaphor as much as the next man, particularly if that man is the recently knighted Professor Van-Tam; on the other hand people using management speak to make their topic and themselves seem important really causes me to grind my teeth.

 

Some of the examples that particularly set me off:

  • 'Forensic' as in "we need to have a forensic look at this". Me: "Are we investigating crime or do you mean that we need to look at this in detail?"
  • 'Deep Dive' as in "next time we'll take a deep dive into this topic". Me: "Are we going to sea, or do you mean we'll look at it in detail?
  • 'Granular' as in "the report goes into granular detail". I accept that common usage is for 'granular' to be synonymous with 'detailed', it's the unintended tautology that causes me angst.
  • 'At pace' as in "We'll need to complete this project at pace". Why can't you just say 'quickly'?

Someone has already brought up the use of 'myself' when the speaker means 'me', that also sets me off...

 

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On 1/2/2022 at 12:02 PM, spruecutter96 said:

There's a language other than English?! Why was I not informed?

 

Chris. 

Perhaps you were informed...

 

Just not in English.

 

:coat: already on, I'll see my own way out.

 

IanJ

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On 16/11/2021 at 13:43, dromia said:

Gay to me means happy, carefree and cheery.

Does it? I’m 56 and I don’t remember a time when gay didn’t mean what it does now. But you keep using it like Noel Coward if you must.

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1 hour ago, MajorCalloway said:

Does it? I’m 56 and I don’t remember a time when gay didn’t mean what it does now. But you keep using it like Noel Coward if you must.

 

Well I'm only just 57 and I do remember when it didn't mean what it does now.

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Me too. Read memoirs or watch TV & films from before 1960, even the Flintstones title music (1960). It was used in the context of happy.

Other, not so nice, hurtful, words were used in the other context.

I think it's time we changed the subject. this is heading towards upsetting Mike, or worse, Heather.

 

 

This universe? this Country. Watch something like Police Interceptors.

They risk their lives to arrest criminals, and time and again at the end of the show you hear -" No charges were brought". 

My Sister and her Husband have both taken early retirement from the force.

They were sick of seeing the same criminals being let off again and again.

 

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I confess I've only read the first few pages, so apologies if these have already come up:

 

"Price point" really winds me up - what's wrong with "price"?

 

"Tasked with" - when I were a lad, task was a noun.

 

American misuse of "anymore" to mean nowadays or often e.g. "anymore I only build Tamiya kits".

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1 hour ago, Wez said:

 

Well I'm only just 57 and I do remember when it didn't mean what it does now.

Me too.

 

There was a flower shop in Ryde on the Isle of Wight, where I lived as a teenager, called Gay Flowers. It was opened in the mid 70s when the chippy that was there moved to bigger premises next door. I'm sure the couple who named it only meant it as 'Happy'. As kids at that time we didn't associate it with anything other the flower shop that used to be our chippy. Sometime around the late 70s it gradually became the subject of occasional jokes, so in my mind that is when the term gay changed its meaning where I was. I suspect in those days cultural changes like this moved around much more slowly. Perhaps we were a bit behind on the Island 🙂 The shop lasted into the late 80s as I recall (might be wrong there).

 

It was opposite a most excellent model shop BTW. Also sadly gone. But for anyone close by, there is an excellent one on the Island called Upstairs Downstairs in Sandown which I always visit when I'm over. Sorry - off topic.

 

 

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