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Southern Europe GB Chat


Wez

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7 hours ago, vppelt68 said:

Eh, somebody's *gotta* ask this, and it may just as well be me... Are e.g. airplanes from non-Southern European countries with a coastline that are/were on a long term based in Southern European countries with a coast line, in places like Ta Qali, Comiso, Iraklion, Foggia, Cagliari, Aviano etc eligible in this Group Build?

 

Already been asked, see below:

 

On 01/11/2022 at 17:04, Wez said:

 

Foreign based are fine providing they are actually based there, for instance 56 Sqn on Lightnings were based in Cyprus so that's acceptable, but 56 Sqn with Phantoms only went there on detachment e.g. APC, so that wouldn't be acceptable.  Does this help?

 

 

4 hours ago, Grandboof said:

Thinking now is a Greek Noratlas to start . Looking forward to this 

Martin H

 

That I'd like to see very, very much!

 

6 hours ago, TonyOD said:

 

As indicated elsewhere, happy to help.

 

Thank you sir!  PM inbound.

 

Thanks to TonyOD for offering to co-host, anyone else up for the task?  Many hands make light work!

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Right, now this GB is in the calendar, I thought I'd better define the geographical context to this GB.

 

This GB is open to any subject from any southern European nation that has a coastline on the Mediterranean Sea including the Adriatic and Aegean seas plus Portugal who often get missed out.  For countries such as France and the former Yugoslavia, only those regions on the coast are eligible.

 

So your eligible subjects can come from:

 

Portugal

Spain

Gibraltar

France (from the following regions: Occitaine, Provence-Alpes-Côte D'Azur and of course, Corse (Corsica),

Monaco

Italy (including all of the islands)

Malta

Slovenia

Croatia

Bosnia-Herzegovina

Montenegro

Yugoslavia pre break up

Albania

Greece

Cyprus

 

This also includes subjects from antiquity from these countries.

 

This also equipment from countries outside of this area that were permanently based there (e.g. 56 Sqn RAF on Lightnings were based in Cyprus so that's acceptable, but 56 Sqn RAF with Phantoms only went there on detachment e.g. APC, so that wouldn't be acceptable).  Eligible subjects also include wartime rotations such as the RAF Sqns or the RN Submarines based in Malta or any ship assigned to Force H in Gibraltar.

 

Cars raced in the Monaco GP would be acceptable too.

 

Hopefully we'll get a lot of varied and interesting subjects with this GB, I'm looking forward to it!

 

You've got until 10th June 2023 to decide what you're going to do!

 

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  • Wez changed the title to Southern Europe GB 10 Jun-1 Oct 2023
11 minutes ago, Wez said:

Portugal

Spain

Gibraltar

France (from the following Departments: Pyrénées-Orientales, Aude, Hèrault, Gard, Bouches-du-Rhône, Var, Alpes-Maritimes, Corse (Corsica),

Monaco

Italy (including all of the islands)

Malta

Slovenia

Croatia

Bosnia-Herzegovina

Montenegro

Albania

Greece

Cyprus

 

This also includes subjects from antiquity from these countries.

 

 

 

'cos...  like...   there's barely any choice there....   :fool: 

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Okay, I have definitively decidedly made a conclusive and unchangeable decision that in this GB I will build a Tuskegee P-51B.  Nothing will change my mind about this.  Absolutely not... Not even the metallic paint finish.  Really.  Nope, a 332nd P-51B it is.

 

What are the odds?!

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Hi @Wez

 

Seeing as Monaco and Italy are included you can add me to the list as well please as I have a fair stash of F1 and rally cars that fit the bill :) 

Might be a nice distraction building something relatively simple in the middle of the Go large GB with a 1/12 F1 car, might turn out as a mojo boost and sanity check :):) 

 

Ian :)

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20 hours ago, TonyOD said:

This is my front runner 🇮🇹

 

spacer.png

 

19 hours ago, TonyOD said:


Nocciola Chiaro Verde/Oliva Scuro, apparently!

 

Really?  A total repaint?  I would have thought it was Dark Green/Dark Earth/Azure Blue. when was this aircraft in service?

 

Attractive subject though without a shadow of a doubt.

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10 hours ago, Redstaff said:

Hi @Wez

 

Seeing as Monaco and Italy are included you can add me to the list as well please as I have a fair stash of F1 and rally cars that fit the bill :) 

Might be a nice distraction building something relatively simple in the middle of the Go large GB with a 1/12 F1 car, might turn out as a mojo boost and sanity check :):) 

 

Ian :)

 

Great, it would be great to see something other than aircraft in this GB, I'm really looking forward to some eclectic choices.

 

6 hours ago, DaveJL said:

Glad this one made it through! My entry will most likely be a Spanish Eurofighter but I do have all the bits for a Hellenic F-4E in the stash. We'll see :lol:

 

Either would be very welcome as we don't see enough Greek or Spanish choices.

 

22 hours ago, RidgeRunner said:

It all sounds perfectly reasonable, Wez. Unless anything changes and my fickle brain concocts something else, I will be going with a Spanish TF-104G

 

Talking of Spanish subjects, an excellent choice Martin!

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24 minutes ago, Wez said:

Really?  A total repaint?  I would have thought it was Dark Green/Dark Earth/Azure Blue. when was this aircraft in service?


Seems so. I haven’t been able to turn much up on it yet, according to Xtradecal call-outs late 1945. Although the colours in the pic suggest dark green/dark earth the diagonal pattern doesn’t look very RAF. I found the Italian colour refs elsewhere on this forum, same scheme once featured on a decal sheet from Modelingtime. Maybe @Giorgio N can she’s some light on it (magari!) 😁

 

Edit: here you go. Correction, the decals were by Fantasy Printshop, Modelingtime is just a website that referred to them.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234920321-spitfire-in-italian-service/ 

Edited by TonyOD
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On 11/16/2022 at 2:18 AM, Wez said:

any ship assigned to Force H in Gibraltar.

       Gidday, it's a fair way off and plans have been known to change, but if I can safely remove the molded-on bulges without the hull collapsing I'm planning to convert the Airfix Belfast kit into HMS Sheffield.

Regards, Jeff.

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8 minutes ago, Marklo said:

Does Turkey count, I have a two seater Fury that comes in Turkish markings looking for a home since he fury GB didn’t make the cut.

 

Turkey does not count I'm afraid, it's still considered a part of the Middle East

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16 hours ago, TonyOD said:


Seems so. I haven’t been able to turn much up on it yet, according to Xtradecal call-outs late 1945. Although the colours in the pic suggest dark green/dark earth the diagonal pattern doesn’t look very RAF. I found the Italian colour refs elsewhere on this forum, same scheme once featured on a decal sheet from Modelingtime. Maybe @Giorgio N can she’s some light on it (magari!) 😁

 

Edit: here you go. Correction, the decals were by Fantasy Printshop, Modelingtime is just a website that referred to them.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234920321-spitfire-in-italian-service/ 

 

That sheet was indeed "made" by Modelingtime, with the help of an Italian model club (can't remember which one). Fantasy Printshop printed the sheets for them, as Modeling Time was not a printer... that is actually the same that happens with most decal companies, there may be tens of names around but in the end the printing is done by the usual 5 or 6 suspects (Microscale, Cartograf, Fantasy Printshop and a couple others).

 

There is one picture of 4-20 in this scheme that was taken in November 1945, you can see it on this website (next to last on the page)

https://www.eaf51.org/Photo_03_51_ICAF_Spit.htm

 

Regarding the camo scheme, the truth is that nobody can really tell for sure what colours were used ! It was most likely repainted because the scheme is very different from the RAF schemes in which these aircraft were received, the use of Italian Tavola 4 standard paints is considered probable because these were easily available and were actually used in the postwar years (for example on aircraft exported to the middle east but not only) and most seem to consider Verde Oliva Scuro 2 and Nocciola Chiaro 4 as the most likely.

The undersurfaces are puzzling... they look very dark, some mention MAP Azure as the paint used but personally I'm not sure. Most Italian Spitfire Vs were actually delivered in the Day Fighter Scheme, with Medium Sea Grey undersurfaces, why should this have Azure undersurfaces ?

Said that, a number of RAF Spitfires in Italy also seem to have featured dark undersurfaces even when wearing DFS on top. Were these in Azure as well ? But then, why should Azure look so dark ? Azure is roughly comparable to Medium Sea Grey in reflectivity and unless a film that darken the blues was used (that is of course possible), it should look as dark as MSG.

Another possibility is Light Mediterranean Blue, that was indeed quite a dark colour, actually darker than Nocciola Chiaro (that would explain the contrast in the picture where the undersurfaces are darker than the lighter of the top camo colours). This possibility has also been mentioned regarding the RAF aircraft (for example by Lucas in his work on RAF overseas based fighters in 1945-50).

Quite a different option would be as suggested in past by someone on a forum I followed, that is a 2 colour scheme, with Verde Oliva Scuro overall and upper bands of Nocciola Chiaro. Unusual for sure but the use of darker colours on the undersides was not uncommon in WW2 Italy: most schemes acutally used the light grey only under the wings, while the lower surfaces of the fuselage were in the upper camouflage colour (or in one of the upper two colours).

So there it is, a lot of possiblities but no real hard evidence for a scheme or the other.

Edited by Giorgio N
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Many thanks for all that information, @Giorgio N, there is a lot for me to think about!

 

I can't make out 4-20 specifically in any of the photographs, is it in the one with the Baltimores?

 

Interestingly the Xtradecal callouts say that this airframe was a Vc, whereas the captions on the website say it was a Vb.

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16 minutes ago, TonyOD said:

Many thanks for all that information, @Giorgio N, there is a lot for me to think about!

 

I can't make out 4-20 specifically in any of the photographs, is it in the one with the Baltimores?

 

Interestingly the Xtradecal callouts say that this airframe was a Vc, whereas the captions on the website say it was a Vb.

That's a nice subject, Tony :) I fancied doing a Co-Belligerent Spit with an Airfix VC kit, but as with everything else, I haven't "got a round tuit!"

 

On the subject of Xtradecal, I've been advised in the past to double-check their research as it can be a bit wayward, so go with what you know.....

 

Cheers,

Mark

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35 minutes ago, TonyOD said:

Many thanks for all that information, @Giorgio N, there is a lot for me to think about!

 

I can't make out 4-20 specifically in any of the photographs, is it in the one with the Baltimores?

 

Interestingly the Xtradecal callouts say that this airframe was a Vc, wheVcreas the captions on the website say it was a Vb.

 

Yes, 4-20 is in the lineup with the baltimore and other aircraft, the picture at the very bottom of the page before the map.

Don't bother too much with the captions on that page, most come from the book published by the Air Force on the Spitfires in Italian service and there are a lot of wrong ones there. That aircraft is indeed a Vc, there's a better print of the Spitfire alone in MMP's book on the Spitfire V and here the guns of the Vc are clearly visible. Mind, IMHO the best way to tell a Vc from a Fb is the shape of the gun barrel covers, these on the Vb are constantly tapering while on the Vc the section closer to the wing is straight sided. The stub beside the gun covers was absent from some Vc, so its absence does not necessarily mean a Vb.

 

 

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1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

That's a nice subject, Tony :) I fancied doing a Co-Belligerent Spit with an Airfix VC kit, but as with everything else, I haven't "got a round tuit!"

 

On the subject of Xtradecal, I've been advised in the past to double-check their research as it can be a bit wayward, so go with what you know.....

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

Same here, I've wanted to build one for a long time but never did. Now I have the Airfix kit, that finally give us a nice and accurate base (my only gripe are the flat wheel well covers) and I should probably start... Mind, Italy also received a number of Mk.Vb, so one of these would have been possible earlier.

The striped camo on 4-20 is sure tempting but I think I'll go with a standard DFS aircraft with my build.

Speaking of Italian Spitfires, the Mk.IXs are also quite interesting, with some quite unusual options, like the aircraft operated initially with original camouflage and partially overpainted RAF roundels or the ones modified for recce operations.

While I mentioned that the book features a few wrong captions, the volume issued by the Air Force is sure worth finding for anyone interested on the subject as it's very well stocked with pictures. The link below is to show the title and other details, don't know where the best outlet to buy one would be though. This one is listed through Amazon but is actually sold directly by the Air Force, don't know however if they post outside Italy and if so what they may charge. The book is still quite widely available in Italy through various bookshops, best option is search around.

 

https://www.amazon.it/Spitfire-italiani-Aeronautica-Militare/dp/B07YTXVY59

 

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