Boeing P-12E Colour Question

[2996 Victor]

Hi all,

 

With another vintage Matchbox project on the cards, I've a question (or two) about the colour schemes worn by these aircraft.

 

I've been reading @Dana Bell's Air Force Colors Vol.1 1926-1942, which tells me that up to February 1934 tactical aircraft wore Olive Drab 22 fuselages and training aircraft were Light Blue 23. Thereafter, all aircraft regardless of role would be light blue. Given that the P-26 was introduced in 1935, and that aircraft would only be re-painted on an as required basis, I was wondering how likely it would be that any P-12Es in tactical squadrons would have sported Light Blue 23 fuselages.

 

Apart from the well-known "Skylarks" aircraft, I've spotted a profile on t'internet here which purports to show a 79th PS aircraft in 1935 with a blue fuselage. How likely is that?

 

More interestingly, I've also come across a photo here of a P-12E of the 25th BS, 6th Composite Group, Panama Canal Zone in 1933. This is said to be a training aircraft - so presumably would have been blue? The fuselage band looks very pale, possibly white? There also appears to be a band on the lower wing.

 

Perhaps those more learned than me would be able to offer their thoughts?

 

Many thanks and best regards,

 

Mark

[e8n2]

8 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Hi all,

 

With another vintage Matchbox project on the cards, I've a question (or two) about the colour schemes worn by these aircraft.

 

I've been reading @Dana Bell's Air Force Colors Vol.1 1926-1942, which tells me that up to February 1934 tactical aircraft wore olive drab fuselages and training aircraft were light blue. Thereafter, all aircraft regardless of role would be light blue.

 

With regard to P-12Es, apart from the well-known "Skylarks" aircraft, I've spotted a profile on t'internet here which purports to show a 79th PS aircraft in 1935 with a blue fuselage. How likely is that?

 

Mark

It is probably very likely that over a year later that you would find tactical aircraft in blue fuselages, however,t he blue in the profile looks a bit too dark to me.

Later,

Dave

[2996 Victor]

2 hours ago, e8n2 said:

It is probably very likely that over a year later that you would find tactical aircraft in blue fuselages, however,t he blue in the profile looks a bit too dark to me.

Later,

Dave

Thanks, Dave, that's great! I did think the blue on the profile was a bit too dark for Blue 23.

 

Cheers,

Mark 

[Toryu]

I remember when I researched for my P-12 model (here) that one of the sources which I listed stated that no tactical P-12 had repainted their fuselage in the later blue colour. Olive green was still used as late as summer 1935 except for equipment that came fresh from the factory. The Air Corps received only limited funds in the thirties and existing stock had to be used up first. Repainting typically occurred during overhaul or when the plane was handed down to another group. There may be exceptions or mixed outfits, however, and it's quite difficult to ascertain the correct colour from b/w photographs. One indicator may be a very dark colour which would usually be olive rather than blue.

[2996 Victor]

34 minutes ago, Toryu said:

I remember when I researched for my P-12 model (here) that one of the sources which I listed stated that no tactical P-12 had repainted their fuselages in the later blue colour. Olive green was still used as late as summer 1935 except for equipment that came fresh from the factory. The Air Corps received only limited funds in the thirties and exicting stock had to used up first. Repainting typically occurred during overhaul or  when the plane was handed down to another group. There may be exceptions or mixed outfits, however, and it's quite difficult to ascertain the correct colour from b/w photographs. One indicator may be a very dark colour which would usually be olive rather than blue.

Hi and many thanks for this, and may I just add that your P-12 build is gorgeous!

 

To be honest, given the timeframe, it seemed unlikely to me that any P-12s would have remained in tactical squadrons long enough to warrant repainting. As you rightly say, repainting would occur only during a major overhaul, and aircraft would not have been repainted unnecessarily. Also, the P-26 being introduced would have meant the retirement of remaining P-12s from tactical units, and I understand that some if not all the P-26s were delivered in OD22 as well. It would just be interesting to know for certain (which I realise is somewhat unlikely!).

 

The "Skylarks" P-12E having a blue fuselage is understandable, particularly given its use in a public environment. I'm leaning toward the 25th BS P-12E for my subject.....

 

Thanks again and best regards,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

42 minutes ago, Toryu said:

my P-12 model

I meant to ask what the significance of the white fuselage band is?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark 

[Toryu]

Hi Mark,

 

The white band on my model is part of the squadron identifier (white wheels, nose and band) within the group, not necessarily indication of a lead position.

 

Your choice of the 25th BS looks like a great subject. I'd paint it OD if the picture is actually from 1933. Having a closer look at the wing stripes they look like yellow rather than white. This additional marking may indicate a squadron hack for the commander or else.

 

It could be this one, the only one in the call number list that was definitely issued to the 25th BS -

32-19 (25 BS) crashed on takeoff at David, Panama Feb 2, 1936

 

Btw, you're right about the P-26 - all P-26As were delivered in OD and possibly not repainted before spring/summer 1935.

 

Cheers, Michael

 

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Toryu said:

Hi Mark,

 

The white band on my model is part of the squadron identifier (white wheels, nose and band) within the group, not necessarily indication of a lead position.

 

Your choice of the 25th BS looks like a great subject. I'd paint it OD if the picture is actually from 1933. Having a closer look at the wing stripes they look like yellow rather than white. This additional marking may indicate a squadron hack for the commander or else.

 

It could be this one, the only one in the call umber list that was definitely issued to the 25th BS -

32-19 (25 BS) crashed on takeoff at David, Panama Feb 2, 1936

 

Btw, you're right about the P-26 - all P-26As were delivered in OD and possibly not repainted before spring/summer 1935.

 

Cheers, Michael

 

Hi Michael,

 

thanks for the additional info on the 25th BS P-12E, that's greatly appreciated! The fuselage looks quite pale for OD, and being said to be a trainer is why I thought probably Light Blue 23. I'd assumed the wing stripes would be something other than yellow when compared to the horizontal tail surfaces, but of course they're in shadow from the upper wing - another look is needed! The cowling also appears darker than the fuselage, but the lack of differential between the shades of the blue and red on the rudder makes it difficult to suggest what the cowling might be.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Toryu]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

a trainer is why I thought probably Light Blue 23

 

That's rather unlikely Mark. The P-12, when built in 1932/33, was not meant to be a trainer and therefore would have been factory-painted in OD. If it was used as a trainer by the 25th BS they wouldn't have re-painted it, particularly as it seems to have been a solitaire. The blue colour directive was meant for the original trainers, such as the ATs and BTs.

 

The dark cowling escaped me. Here are my assumptions: white fuselage band, white wing bands (can't be yellow since the wing is already yellow!)*, black cowling (compare with walkway). If the cowling was black, the face plate of the engine would probably have been black, too. The number 55 might have been repeated on the top of the face plate in very small numbers.

 

* Influenced by the sunshine the yellow tail appears brighter than the wings, so the white fuselage band should also appear brighter than the wing bands.

 

Happy modelling, Michael

 

[e8n2]

You need to remember that some P-12s actually hung around until after Pearl Harbor.  The few that made it that far were painted in an overall aluminum color and would also have been in the blue for the fuselage.  There were also National Guard units, mostly Observation squadrons IIRC.  Hack aircraft would have been around for both active duty and guard units that would have been painted with the blue fuselage.

Later,

Dave

[2996 Victor]

14 hours ago, Toryu said:

 

That's rather unlikely Mark. The P-12, when built in 1932/33, was not meant to be a trainer and therefore would have been factory-painted in OD. If it was used as a trainer by the 25th BS they wouldn't have re-painted it, particularly as it seems to have been a solitaire. The blue colour directive was meant for the original trainers, such as the ATs and BTs.

 

The dark cowling escaped me. Here are my assumptions: white fuselage band, white wing bands (can't be yellow since the wing is already yellow!)*, black cowling (compare with walkway). If the cowling was black, the face plate of the engine would probably have been black, too. The number 55 might have been repeated on the top of the face plate in very small numbers.

 

* Influenced by the sunshine the yellow tail appears brighter than the wings, so the white fuselage band should also appear brighter than the wing bands.

 

Happy modelling, Michael

 

2 hours ago, e8n2 said:

You need to remember that some P-12s actually hung around until after Pearl Harbor.  The few that made it that far were painted in an overall aluminum color and would also have been in the blue for the fuselage.  There were also National Guard units, mostly Observation squadrons IIRC.  Hack aircraft would have been around for both active duty and guard units that would have been painted with the blue fuselage.

Later,

Dave

Thanks, guys, that's all brilliant - more delving is needed, I think, perhaps into specific units such as the NG. Michael - I wonder if the cowling ring (and hence most likely the faceplate) were painted in the unit colours of the 25th BS? Presumably so, in which case I would imagine that information could well be known.

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Whistlekiller]

Only slightly related I know but does anybody have a good pointer to the nearest Vallejo Model Air equivalent of Light Blue 23? 

[ltdann]

Also, a number of P-12C/D/Es were given to the Navy and redesignated as F4B-4As to be used as trainers. When their training command services was complete, many F4B-4/F4B-4As were transferred to VJ-3 and VJ-5 and used as target drones under Project FOX. I show one of these, actually a P-12C (formerly 31-210) lasting until June 1942

 

Rich

Edited April 20, 2022 by ltdann