DeepSea Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 Hi all, Looking at this tweet - I don't seem to see any missiles on the fuselage stations, just the wing ones with ASRAAMs. Am I going mad or does anyone know why that'd be the case? Cheers David 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotthldr Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 Been like this for a while now. The rules of engagement state that any target must be visibly identified, therefore negates the use of BVR missiles. Each missile also has a take off and landing stress life, so the carriage of BVR missiles just for the sake of it will deplenish stocks quicker than need be. Having said that QRA jets can still at times be seen carrying BVR missiles, probably to do with keeping up currency for the aircrew and weapon loaders, but it’s few and far. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitewolf Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 FFBNW lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 9 hours ago, scotthldr said: Been like this for a while now. The rules of engagement state that any target must be visibly identified, therefore negates the use of BVR missiles. Each missile also has a take off and landing stress life, so the carriage of BVR missiles just for the sake of it will deplenish stocks quicker than need be. Having said that QRA jets can still at times be seen carrying BVR missiles, probably to do with keeping up currency for the aircrew and weapon loaders, but it’s few and far. so means that after so many years always going up with 8 missiles as the only? western airfroce regularly (and in peace time!), common (economical ) sense also takes turns in the RAF? the Italian Airforce F-35 seemed to have used an Amraam only load out though in the baltics and Iceland! .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Des Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 With the Chief of the Defence Staff suggesting that risks of an 'accidental' conflict with Russia have been increasing over recent years towards their current state a policy of not carrying BVR missiles when policing the UKADR just for the sake of showing-off a well recognised but in terms of the mission superfluous capability might be one way of sending a message of restraint in addition to the above-mentioned operational and financial benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 Sounds similar to the USAF's limitations in Vietnam. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweeky Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 Gun will be loaded too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 4 hours ago, tweeky said: Gun will be loaded too. Are you sure? Definitely not on any UK F-35 it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougC Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 Loading any Q jet with IR missiles +/- a gun is all well & good….. right up until the point where it’s cloudy & you need a non-IR missile to shoot something down. Like a hijacked airliner which is being used as a weapon against a centre of population. 9/11 changed a lot of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sierra Mike Sierra Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 (edited) Just double checked and it seems that's also true for the joint RAF/Luftwaffe Air Policing South in Romania, only IR/short range missiles. The Luftwaffe jets there carried only IRIS-T - and a loaded gun 😉 Yet during the Air Policing in the Baltics they carried at least sometimes two AMRAAMs. But I see the point that ROEs require visual identfication anyway, and take off and landing stress on weapons should be kept limited. Edited November 14, 2021 by Sierra Mike Sierra 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweeky Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 Quote Definitely not on any UK F-35 it seems. I was referring to the Typhoons gun being loaded, Don't think the new leaping heap will be cleared for QRA duties yet. If at all. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 22 minutes ago, tweeky said: I was referring to the Typhoons gun being loaded, Don't think the new leaping heap will be cleared for QRA duties yet. If at all. I was assumung so... but as the F-35 was just deployed on the QEII, I am assuming they need some kind of QRA there as well, at least will! Italy as mentioned above already uses the F-35A in this role. without even pylons for any kind of IR missile! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 21 hours ago, DougC said: Loading any Q jet with IR missiles +/- a gun is all well & good….. right up until the point where it’s cloudy & you need a non-IR missile to shoot something down. Like a hijacked airliner which is being used as a weapon against a centre of population. 9/11 changed a lot of things. A section of two Typhoons with a couple Asraam each would have no problem in shooting down an airliner, regardless of clouds or rain.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 I guess the Italians see AMRAAM as sufficient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougC Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 4 hours ago, Giorgio N said: A section of two Typhoons with a couple Asraam each would have no problem in shooting down an airliner, regardless of clouds or rain.... Do you mean AMRAAM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLC1966 Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 On 11/14/2021 at 7:13 PM, exdraken said: Are you sure? Definitely not on any UK F-35 it seems. Where does the F-35 enter this conversation ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 15 minutes ago, PLC1966 said: Where does the F-35 enter this conversation ? The F-35 enters EVERY conversation 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 9 hours ago, PLC1966 said: Where does the F-35 enter this conversation ? Nobody knows, it sneaked in using its stealth lol. It certainly makes sense in this post Cold War (or possibly not!) world to not require being loaded to the brim for QRA. It wasn't the case back in the day though when the "bears" didn't always come along on their own and even the Tanker got involved in the shadowing (which made for an interesting photo). It seems incredible to me now but in the 70's & 80's we were squaring up to each other in a very aggressive war footing posture that doesn't exist at the moment (and hopefully never will again). Duncan B 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 10 hours ago, DougC said: Do you mean AMRAAM? I mean Asraam. It's a modern missile and while clouds do absorb IR radiation, the performance of this weapon is enough that any fighter can easily reach a position for a succesful attack on an airliner taking the presence of a potentially reduced IR signature into account. Even the relatively small warhead is not much of a problem, as a QRA section would still be able to lay down enough missiles for a kill. not forgetting that airliners have been destroyed by single missiles with even smaller warheads Really in peacetime a QRA load of 2 IR guided missiles has been common on plenty of types for the last few decades. I can't see why we should worry today.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 If it was a real war we'd have a lot more to worry about, if briefly, than a single intercept. Basically these are either errors on the behalf of commercial aircraft or just mature adults playing games in search of meagre fragments of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougC Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 8 hours ago, Giorgio N said: I mean Asraam. It's a modern missile and while clouds do absorb IR radiation, the performance of this weapon is enough that any fighter can easily reach a position for a succesful attack on an airliner taking the presence of a potentially reduced IR signature into account. Even the relatively small warhead is not much of a problem, as a QRA section would still be able to lay down enough missiles for a kill. not forgetting that airliners have been destroyed by single missiles with even smaller warheads Really in peacetime a QRA load of 2 IR guided missiles has been common on plenty of types for the last few decades. I can't see why we should worry today.... Fair enough.....but the last time I flew with ASRAAM, it most definitely couldn't acquire or engage a target in cloud. It's a great missile but all IR missiles have their limitations. Unless you know something different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troffa Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 32 minutes ago, DougC said: Fair enough.....but the last time I flew with ASRAAM, it most definitely couldn't acquire or engage a target in cloud. It's a great missile but all IR missiles have their limitations. Unless you know something different? спаси́бо! 🙂 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 38 minutes ago, DougC said: Fair enough.....but the last time I flew with ASRAAM, it most definitely couldn't acquire or engage a target in cloud. It's a great missile but all IR missiles have their limitations. Gad, man! Giving comfort to the enemy! You're supposed to tell the Russkies ASRAAM can hit them between the eyes while they're engaged in extra curricular activities in their secret girlfriend's basement apartment on a dark stormy night in December! 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junglierating Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 On 11/15/2021 at 7:25 PM, exdraken said: I was assumung so... but as the F-35 was just deployed on the QEII, I am assuming they need some kind of QRA there as well, at least will! Italy as mentioned above already uses the F-35A in this role. without even pylons for any kind of IR missile! Ah the alert 5 /15/30 what a wonderful waste of my life lying down on the flight deck snoozing with the pilot also snoozing in the cockpit 😂😂 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLC1966 Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 39 minutes ago, junglierating said: Ah the alert 5 /15/30 what a wonderful waste of my life lying down on the flight deck snoozing with the pilot also snoozing in the cockpit 😂😂 Even better knowing HMG were paying you for it..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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