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1/72 - Focke-Wulf Fw.190D Dora family by IBG Models - D-9 Cottbus & D-15 Torpedo released


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17 hours ago, Piotr Mikolajski said:

 

You can build a prototype D-15, it existed. ;)

As for the versions, there will be D-9 with subcontractor variants as well as D-11, D-13 and D-15.

 

16 hours ago, HKR said:

Knowledge update: it existed. Prototype has been rebuilt from D-9 to D-15 standard and at least one example completed in March 1945 (this is confirmed by photos).

;)

 

I'm aware that a prototype existed, although various sources seem to show differences... was W/Nr.210043 a D-14 or a D-15 ?

Or was the prototype that 601289 of which a few pictures show the remains ? Or is this the "production" aircraft ? I say "production" as my understanding is that this was sent to DB for conversion, so may well have been another test aircraft

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1 hour ago, lasermonkey said:

I've just seen £20.99 quoted for the price. That's too much for a single-seat fighter in 1/72, IMO. I'm out unless it ends up being significantly less.

Definitely avoid this pricey shop. Hannants has it around 17GBP at the regular price (and a pre-order discount)

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36 minutes ago, Thomas V. said:

Their PZL.23 costs around 12-14€, plane the size of D-9 should not cost more than that.

 

In this mythical world where the cost of making moulds has dropped by 100% and the kit is priced by the size of the aircraft, not the contents of the box, it's probably even cheaper.

 

In the world where this Fw 190D was produced, all the components needed to make a kit have become several times more expensive since 2017. Kit manufacturers have also raised prices several times in the last four years.

The price of the PZL.23 still has 2017 levels.

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31 minutes ago, Piotr Mikolajski said:

 

In this mythical world where the cost of making moulds has dropped by 100% and the kit is priced by the size of the aircraft, not the contents of the box, it's probably even cheaper.

 

In the world where this Fw 190D was produced, all the components needed to make a kit have become several times more expensive since 2017. Kit manufacturers have also raised prices several times in the last four years.

The price of the PZL.23 still has 2017 

They should they price it 24€ or even 36€ then , as you say components " become several times more expensive", as we all in the know-know " these components"  make most of kits price-right.

Pushing agenda that is legitimate from manufacturers viewpoint but definitely not from fellow modellers or buyers-not nice in my view, I refrained going "ad hominem" long time but your " insights" and " knowledge" are highly in line of covert advertising, which as said you have every right to do-but so do others to rebuke.

 

 

 

 

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OK, that's enough arguing over the cost of the model.  Please refrain from the personal insults, or there will be some consequences for those that don't stop.  That goes for all sides of the argument, so don't think there's any favouritism.

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Returning to the advertised programme, I'm pleased enough to see these. My stock has only a single Academy example in it, I've long been meaning to rectify that so that looks like an ambition I can rectify before long. The D-15 will save me doing a conversion & copying bits off my Dragon Ta 152C kit.

Steve.

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On 16/11/2021 at 11:35, Giorgio N said:

I'm aware that a prototype existed, although various sources seem to show differences... was W/Nr.210043 a D-14 or a D-15 ?

Or was the prototype that 601289 of which a few pictures show the remains ? Or is this the "production" aircraft ? I say "production" as my understanding is that this was sent to DB for conversion, so may well have been another test aircraft

Giorgio, sorry for late response. The story of the Fw 190 prototypes is itself material for a separate book, I think there is not much room for such stories here.
Well, actually 210040 and 210043 were D-9 re-engined with DB603, and I'd be careful calling them D-14 or D-15 prototypes. They were series machines, picked up directly from the production line in Sorau.
210040 has been rebuilt to DB603 immediately and 210043 saved Jumo-213 for comparison tests for some time, then also received DB-603. First one was delivered on 8 and the second on 10 October 1944 to Stuttgart Daimler-Benz development and test facility. During trials both were described in documents as "Fw 190(D-9) mit DB-603". So definitely not a D-14 or 15 at that time. For 210040 installation of power egg has been completed on 15th November 1944 and then plane received V76 designation, later 210043 become V77. At that time there was no D-15 planned, and documents from December 1944 mention D-14 versions. So, at that time we could consider to call them D-14 prototypes, but Germans used plain V76 and V77 without bothering with the "target designation".
The problem with the prototypes is that as a result of over-interpretation and misunderstanding, around March 1945 the D-14 version was deleted from the experimental programme and its place was taken by the D-15 version. And the prototypes in the experimental programme did not change. Since then there is no mention of D-14 in the documents, and the designation D-15 is used, and V76 and V77 could also be called prototypes of D-15.
So: you choose ;) Personally I tend to think of them as an experimental machines and not D-14 or D-15 prototypes.

 

Wk.Nr 601286 that's the different story, this I'd call D-15 a real-life prototype, or, better, a pre-production machine. The history of this machine is linked to "Sonderaktion umbau Fw 190" which was basically approach to convert 15 planes, again pulled of directly from production line, to DB-603 engines. Wk. Nr are known, in dates 11-17March 1945 DB facility received Wk.Nr 601071,-098,-093,-096,-075,-089,-102,-063,-079,-289,-104,-286,-099,-068 and -080. Conversion works started and at least one machine has been completed - that broken one, you saw on the pictures.
And again - you choose if you want to call this as prototype or series (pre-series, whatever) machine. I like the idea to call D-15 as production from the reasons above, however it is obviously more what-if than real.

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On 11/17/2021 at 12:03 PM, HKR said:

Definitely avoid this pricey shop. Hannants has it around 17GBP at the regular price (and a pre-order discount)

That's the price without VAT, so it is just under £21. I'm sure it will be nice for those that can afford it, but it's not for me.

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16 hours ago, HKR said:

Giorgio, sorry for late response. The story of the Fw 190 prototypes is itself material for a separate book, I think there is not much room for such stories here.
Well, actually 210040 and 210043 were D-9 re-engined with DB603, and I'd be careful calling them D-14 or D-15 prototypes. They were series machines, picked up directly from the production line in Sorau.
210040 has been rebuilt to DB603 immediately and 210043 saved Jumo-213 for comparison tests for some time, then also received DB-603. First one was delivered on 8 and the second on 10 October 1944 to Stuttgart Daimler-Benz development and test facility. During trials both were described in documents as "Fw 190(D-9) mit DB-603". So definitely not a D-14 or 15 at that time. For 210040 installation of power egg has been completed on 15th November 1944 and then plane received V76 designation, later 210043 become V77. At that time there was no D-15 planned, and documents from December 1944 mention D-14 versions. So, at that time we could consider to call them D-14 prototypes, but Germans used plain V76 and V77 without bothering with the "target designation".
The problem with the prototypes is that as a result of over-interpretation and misunderstanding, around March 1945 the D-14 version was deleted from the experimental programme and its place was taken by the D-15 version. And the prototypes in the experimental programme did not change. Since then there is no mention of D-14 in the documents, and the designation D-15 is used, and V76 and V77 could also be called prototypes of D-15.
So: you choose ;) Personally I tend to think of them as an experimental machines and not D-14 or D-15 prototypes.

 

Wk.Nr 601286 that's the different story, this I'd call D-15 a real-life prototype, or, better, a pre-production machine. The history of this machine is linked to "Sonderaktion umbau Fw 190" which was basically approach to convert 15 planes, again pulled of directly from production line, to DB-603 engines. Wk. Nr are known, in dates 11-17March 1945 DB facility received Wk.Nr 601071,-098,-093,-096,-075,-089,-102,-063,-079,-289,-104,-286,-099,-068 and -080. Conversion works started and at least one machine has been completed - that broken one, you saw on the pictures.
And again - you choose if you want to call this as prototype or series (pre-series, whatever) machine. I like the idea to call D-15 as production from the reasons above, however it is obviously more what-if than real.

 

Thanks a lot for the very detailed explanation ! Particularly for the clarification on the two V76 and V77 aircraft, on which I would agree with you that calling them "experimental" or maybe "development" machines would be more appropriate.

 

In a sense maybe 601286 is not even a prototype if this was built to a "production" standard, although of course the discussion is academic (but of course a lot of our discussions are). Being the only known D-15 and not having been assigned to an actual unit (correct me if I'm wrong here...), this would be the only option for someone who want to build a "real" D-15, reason why I still consider calling this a production version a bit of a stretch...  don't get me wrong, I have nothing against adding a D-15 to the other variants, it is something that I'm sure the Fw.190 fans will appreciate a lot and while I'm not into Luftwaffe '46 at all I don't have anything against those who'll build a hypothetical D-15 in the favourite Jg markings (that would maybe be Luftwaffe late '45 more than '46..).

Personally I'm very happy to see a new Dora with the kind of quality and detail that IBG seems to promise, I may leave the D-15 alone but I can see myself getting a D-13 for sure... of course this announcement arrived just a week after I decided to spend on some aftermarket for the hasegawa kit...

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5 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

of course this announcement arrived just a week after I decided to spend on some aftermarket for the hasegawa kit...

 

5 hours ago, Piotr Mikolajski said:

 

Perhaps you would like to buy some more aftermarket for a few kits? I have a short list :D

This kind of makes the Loon Models wing & engine/wheel bay conversion I have a bit redundant now too, who knows, might get lucky & make the AML ta 152/Fw 190 tail conversion unwanted as well. :)

Steve.

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9 hours ago, ChristianK said:

 

Ta 152 tail coming. A full Ta 152 would require an almost completely new moulding.

 

No I said that because they mentioned it on the FB link I posted not the image. Here it is for those that don't like to use FB.

 

Screenshot_20211119-181753

 

 

 

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  • Homebee changed the title to 1/72 - Focke-Wulf Fw.190D Dora family by IBG Models - D-9 Cottbus & D-15 Torpedo released

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