1/72 - Focke-Wulf Fw.190D Dora by IBG Models - D-9, D-11, D-13 & D-15 released - new D-9 boxing in 2024

[occa]

2 minutes ago, Piotr Mikolajski said:

 

True, that would be a very different matter. Above all, a matter of poor management of the company's assets 

You have no idea, people actually might be interested in significant prototypes of one of the most famous fighter designs

[Adam Poultney]

I'll probably build one of these

[Piotr Mikolajski]

5 minutes ago, occa said:

You have no idea, people actually might be interested in significant prototypes of one of the most famous fighter designs

 

Of course people are interested in prototypes. And for these people the whole aftermarket works, releasing conversion kits. And small companies, doing resin and short run kits.

[JWM]

6 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Four production versions for the Dora is a bit of a stretch.. D-9, D-12 and D-13 were production versions, the few D-0 were preproduction, other variants were never built. So yes, 4 including a preproduction series though.

Giorgio, I will go even further, for me only D-9 (1805 produced) and ok, the  D11 (wasted 20)  could be named production variants, the others "D" are just prototypes, with not much different status then that of B or C... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190 ).

 

For example Blackburn Botha (important for Polish air forces history) still not existing as injected model... Maybe even better would be modern technology kit of Fairey Battle. I am sure that this  will be a real hit at least for UK, Australian and Canadian customers (also Polish), not small market together,  though... Maybe next time?!

Regrads

J-W

[Cammer625]

As some companies expand their horizons (aircraft!!) it makes sense to do a 190, 109, Spit, P-51, Hurricane….. certainly worked for Arma Hobby.  Zero interest but I probably will get one based on some experience with their 1/72 soft skins.  Will be interesting to see how it looks.

[IanC]

I'm chuffed. There's a need for an up-to-date Dora in the proper scale. A great choice, and hopefully definitive.

 

[Piotr Mikolajski]

29 minutes ago, Cammer625 said:

As some companies expand their horizons (aircraft!!) it makes sense to do a 190, 109, Spit, P-51, Hurricane…

 

TBH this is not even broadening the horizon but simple economic calculation 

 

Let's compare the Fw 190D to the Botha mentioned above.

 

There is much more original source material for the Fw 190D, so there is no need to recreate anything - which means that such a kit is designed much easier and in comparable time to a larger aircraft, where there are fewer versions, but also worse documentation. This means that the design cost of one and the other kit would be comparable.

 

The Botha is twice as big, so it will take up about the same amount of space on the mould - so the cost of producing the mould is more or less the same.

 

As a result, in the same time and by investing the same money, we can have one of the two:

• a complete family of the very famous Fw 190D fighter → many versions, dozens of boxes, countless marking schemes = kit for broad worldwide audience
• a model of a little known aircraft Blackburn Botha → just two versions, probably 3-4 boxes, practically all aircraft in the same camouflage scheme = a classic set for niche connoisseurs

 

Running a business is not charity. Not only is the investment supposed to pay off, but it is supposed to pay off quickly, and then the project is supposed to make money, and as much money as possible. Every businessman will choose the Fw 190D, because there is simply nothing to think about, these projects cannot even be placed next to each other in terms of expected profits.

 

No one has made a model of Botha not because it is some kind of conspiracy. It's just that every person deciding whether to put an idea into production takes a calculator in hand, counts the costs, counts the potential profits... and chooses another subject that will bring him profits.

[LN-KEH]

I welcome a FW 190D series made to the same standard as IBGs recent releases, even if I initially guessed on them doing the Ju 87 as it has more of a Polish connection.   

Their PZL 11s and 37s I picked up while in Gdansk, are very fine examples of toolmakers art. 

And  the FW 190D series has not been done to death in 1/72 - unlike the Me 109 E and G.

I would not mind some early FW 190As by IBG either since Eduard seems to stick to late versions in 1/72.

 

Maybe Piotr could enlighten us to why we suddenly have two Polish companies (IBG and Arma) releasing top quality injection moulded kits?

Earlier Polish kit releases were rather rough. 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by LN-KEH

[MarkoZG]

Any chance we could expect PZL.43 from IBG? Since PZL.23 is already here and many parts from the existing tooling could be used, what does your "business calculator" say?

[Piotr Mikolajski]

18 minutes ago, LN-KEH said:

I welcome a FW 190D series made to the same standard as IBGs recent releases

 

 Standard of Fw 190Ds family is even higher, here is more detailed part of another render, not posted on FB.

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, LN-KEH said:

Maybe Piotr could enlighten us to why we suddenly (...)

 

Well, you certainly can't say that IBG Models appeared suddenly 

The parent company (IBG) has been in existence for 20 years, IBG Models was founded in 2006, and the first kits appeared in 2008 - it was a family of Bedford QL trucks in 1/72. Then came more trucks, vehicles in 1/35, and finally in 2015 the first aircraft kit in 1/72 scale was released - RWD-8. So in 2021 the company celebrated its 15th birthday. Of course, this is half of how much Eduard operates on the market and even less compared to many other well-known companies, but you can no longer say that it is a new company on the market. At the moment the catalogue is about 200 items + another 20 already announced, I suppose some people may be shocked by these figures because they heard maybe about PZL P.11, Karaś or Łoś and nothing more 

 

The design process at IBG Models is no different from that at other modern companies, like Eduard:

• Every modern company looks at the theme in terms of what you can get out of it and what kind of sales it might have. As a result there are over 50 subjects for those 200+ catalogue items, so on average there are 4 boxes for each. In recent times usually more.
• Research team collects information, very often doing in-depth studies of the topic, such as Romanian aircraft paints needed for different PZL aircraft used in Romania.
• The design team analyses the information, very often finding errors in existing studies or plans. Imagine analysing a few thousand images just for one project.
• The project of the model is created in a modular way, so that it can be easily built, and at the same time to include in the production as many versions or variants as possible. This is why there are so many separate sprues in the boxes - in the Fw 190D family the last sprue has the letter Z.
• Moulds are produced by workshops that produce for many other well-known model companies. No one saves on quality but it takes more time.
• Painting schemes and decals are developed by the research team from scratch, because the existing publications, even the new ones, contain a lot of mistakes and often contradict themselves.

Of course, mistakes do and will happen, because there are humans in the company and humans are not perfect. However, conclusions are drawn from each mistake in order to make the next model better. Whether it is better - here it is up to the customers to decide. Taking into account that at various stages of development there are several more kits (not only planes), it is probably not too bad.

 

18 minutes ago, LN-KEH said:

Earlier Polish kit releases were rather rough. 

 

  Why were the earlier Polish models poor? There are several reasons, and I'll make these explanations very short, because in total, a book could (and maybe should?) be written on this subject.

 

Some of the kits still available until recently are really old moulds - even from the 60s or 70s, when the quality of models all over the world was not the best. Some of the moulds made then were copies of simple models from Western European companies.

 

Some quite nice kits were designed in the 1980s (old Łoś, Yak-1, RWD-5), but today they are 35-40 years old and just plain old. Also, the moulds were not always maintained properly, often the plastic was of poor quality, so this must have affected the quality of the models. We also had some vacu models then, but I have no idea where their moulds are now or if they even still exist.

 

In the nineties I think some of the old Frog moulds were bought back from the former USSR, although some say they are copies of them. In any case, these kits are still in production today - the Hawker Hunter is a legend and for the last quarter of a century probably every child in elementary school has seen at least one box of it.

 

The injection kits that were designed at the time were no good, because they basically couldn't be. The manufacturers either didn't have the experience, money, or patience to make a quality model. Some (I won't name them) said outright that they were making a simplified model in 1/72. As a result of such "simplification" something was released, which could hardly be called a model.

 

Some companies stuck in the old ways. Some focused on production of niche models for advanced modellers. Early kits of Mirage Hobby or RPM were not easy, but it was possible to make interesting models from them. RPM produced such models until the end, Mirage Hobby raised the quality and released some good stuff in 1/48.

 

But really the biggest change came at the turn of the century when CAD design became commonplace, CNC machine tools appeared, you didn't have to do it all by hand or using old methods. That affected the quality of the end product, the buildability, the accuracy of the moulds, and in the process changed the philosophy of thinking and design.

 

Of course resin and vacu kits are separate story, just like dozens of aftermarket companies.

 

 

2 minutes ago, MarkoZG said:

Since PZL.23 is already here and many parts from the existing tooling could be used

 

Unfortunately, they cannot be used. Contrary to appearances, these aircraft were different enough that it is impossible to use parts from the released PZL.23 project. This means that the PZL.43 kit would have to be designed from scratch, and this is not profitable. I don't think IBG Models will release this model in the foreseeable future. Similarly unprofitable are the kits from the long list of aircraft that regularly appears on their Facebook:

• LWS-3 Mewa
• LWS-6 Żubr
• PWS-33 Wyżeł
• PWS-35 Ogar
• PWS-40 Junak
• PZL.38 Wilk
• PZL.44 Wicher
• PZL.45 Sokół
• PZL.46 Sum
• PZL.48 Lampart
• PZL.49 Miś
• PZL.50 Jastrząb
• RWD-14 Czapla

Some of this list cannot be designed at all, because - contrary to what many modellers think - there is not enough documentation.

 

All these planes are perfect subjects for companies producing injection-moulded short-run kits. This technology is much cheaper than steel moulds, so things unprofitable as high volume here can make money for themselves. I do not know, however, how much money could be made on them, as I do not cooperate with any company producing such models to know exact profitability calculations.

[JWM]

8 hours ago, Piotr Mikolajski said:

Similarly unprofitable are the kits from the long list of aircraft that regularly appears on their Facebook:

Thank you for clarification that there is no chance for more Polish types by IBG. It makes clear, that efforts paid to do for example vacu model (by Broplan) or resin one is more justified.  I already started to have doubts what to do with Mewa or Zubr waiting in stash, now I see that I simply should build them finally...  

 

10 hours ago, MarkoZG said:

Any chance we could expect PZL.43 from IBG? Since PZL.23 is already here and many parts from the existing tooling could be used, what does your "business calculator" say?

 

8 hours ago, Piotr Mikolajski said:

This means that the PZL.43 kit would have to be designed from scratch, and this is not profitable. I don't think IBG Models will release this model in the foreseeable future.

Regarding difference between PZL 23 and PZL 43, as I remember from my experience with scratch conversion of Heller PZL 23 (which I done some 15 year ago)  indeed the whole fuselage has large modifications - it is extended in some parts including canopy section and dorsal gunner hood, the engine (GR instead of Bristol) is completely different. Surely the inside is different. What is the same (? - AFAIR) Those are wings, undercarriage, tail, the front part of canopy (its become more oval in section toward tail, and it is longer) . Having all those parts in CAD "only" the work on central and front parts of fuselage, and cowling are out of scratch I think. The GR engine can be taken from PZL P24F/G.

Moreover, when IBG released PZL 42 and Karaś was only announced there was information, that PZL 43 will be released as well. Of course personally for me it is not important, because I have mine PZL 43 on shelf, it is perhaps not perfect as new IBG kit will be but I am happy having it and lack of modern kit  makes it even more interesting...  .

Of course dreams loses with economy, that is life... I am old enough to know it.

Regards

J-W

[KRK4m]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:37 AM, Homebee said:

D for Dora ? Focke Wulf Fw.190D?

Could fit:

• five major manufacturing plants - Langenhagen, Cottbus, Sorau, Nordenahm, Kassel
• four production versions - D-0, D-9, D-11, D-13
• triple-blade propeller - yes
• two engine types - Junkers Jumo 213A & 213F
• first class kit
• D -  Dora

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see it completely different.

IIRC, neither the Weserflug at Nordenahm nor the Sorau-Fw Werk manufactured the 190D.

Moreover, to call the Jumo 213A and 213E "two engine types" is a huge exaggeration.

 

In my opinion, these data were given for the entire Fw190 family.

Thus we have five plants: Focke-Wulf in Cottbus, Fieseler in Kassel, Arado in Warnemunde, AGO in Oschersleben and Dornier in Wismar.

The four production versions mentioned are 190A, D, F and G.

The two engine types are: the radial BMW 801 and the V12 Jumo 213.

Propeller layout and 1st class are beyond discussion.

 

However - being hugely disappointed with this choice (BTW what's wrong with the Tamiya 72nd scale Dora?) - I'm still waiting for the decent 1:72 kits of Yak-7/9, La-3/5/7 and Bre XIX.

Not to mention the Miles Master and the Airco DH.4/9/9A.

Cheers

Michael

[MarkoZG]

As J-W said, I don't think the P.43 would have to be made entirely from the scratch. Only the fuselage and clear parts should be new, while the wings, undercarriage, horizontal and even vertical tail surfaces are the same. Since IBG already dared to make P.42 which is much lesser known than P.43, I don't think that making the new fuselage with engine and propeller, alongside the clear parts should be such a risk compared to the sales potential, because this type has never been kitted before (aside from ultra rare Extraplane vacuform) and it could be sold with three different nations' markings. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by MarkoZG

[lasermonkey]

@KRK4mthe Tamiya Dora isn’t one of their better efforts. The spinner is undersized and incorrectly shaped, the stance of the undercarriage is odd (possibly too short) and overall, it has a clunky, slightly exaggerated look compared to the fineness of the Hasegawa kit, even though that’s lacking in detail in places. 
As I mentioned before, I rather like the ‘190D (probably in my top five), so I’m very happy to see what promises to be the gold standard in 1/72. Goodness knows we’ve had a rotten year in the Gentleman’s Scale.

[JWM]

OK, it is great anyway that the IBG as we expect will bring better kit then "Tamigawa" taken together with their  FW 190 D!

My point of view is apparently  simply biased by 50 years of doing models and collection of nearly 500  models on shelves... After all those years I am now still searching for a nice kit of things like Caproni Vizzola F5, Blackburn Botha, Levasseur PL 15 or Junkers W33 (or even G38!!!) that for any of truly WW2 mainstream machine... My recent purchases are three German vacus: He 42, Ju 160 and Ju 90 and resin kit of Curtiss Shrike. ...  So sorry,  I am taking my coat. 

 

Regards

J-W

 

 

[Homebee]

Fw.190D-9 3D renders

Source: https://www.facebook.com/ibgmodels/posts/4617147065073568

 

 

V.P.

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Homebee

[Thomas V.]

Beautiful, this will no doubt be a great success for IBG,can't wait for it to arrive, and can I dare to say that after covered reasearch we might see others scales too( 32nd🤞), but am perfectly happy with 72nd if ( and it seems so) they got it right.

[Piotr Mikolajski]

2 hours ago, JWM said:

Thank you for clarification that there is no chance for more Polish types by IBG.

 

This is your own overinterpretation. I wrote only about the unprofitability of these projects or the technical impossibility of doing some of them.

 

4 minutes ago, MarkoZG said:

I don't think the P.43 would have to be made entirely from the scratch.

 

PZL.43 had new fuselage with gondola significantly moved back. Lower half of wings in the kit is part of the fuselage. To release PZL.43 you need brand new lower half of wings, so you have to design new wings and it means you need to design whole new kit and make whole new mould. Details, like undercarriage, are meaningless at this point because in case of such investment you'll repeat these parts to have them on the same mould to make production easier and cheaper. The vision that in order to produce the PZL.43 it is necessary to put a second mould from the PZL.23 (undercarriage) and third one from the P.24 (engine) on the injection machine is absurd.

 

4 minutes ago, MarkoZG said:

Since IBG already dared to make P.42

 

Once again - PZL.42 was designed as a part of the PZL.23 project. This is even clearly visible on the sprues. Both PZL.23A and PZL.42 share the same sprues for wings (A), fuselage (B), undercarriage (F, H, M) and canopy (L). The only difference is that PZL.23A has frames C (with vertical stabiliser and gondola) and K (with horizontal stabiliser) while PZL.42 has separate frame J instead with all parts for the twin tail.

 

This is how kits are designed today - modularly, so that you can easily and cheaply have an additional type of vehicle or aircraft, if such a design is possible. In this case it was possible because the original PZL.42 was a rebuilt PZL.23A and in the case of the model we have the same thing - 95% PZL.23A plus additional parts, rebuilding the kit to PZL.42.

 

4 minutes ago, MarkoZG said:

I don't think that making the new fuselage with engine and propeller, alongside the clear parts should be such a risk compared to the sales potential

 

As I said earlier, you need whole new kit, so this is significant investment, not just a few new parts. Sales potential is laughable - the only real user was Bulgaria, one Polish and one German painting schemes are good for limited editions only. And well, with all due respect to fellow Bulgarians, but the aircraft used by the Bulgarian Air Force are not mainstream modelling. Yes, it's nice to make it as a part of larger project, so there will be released separate PZL P.24 box with Bulgarian markings, but PZL P.24 is a big project with Bulgarian, Greek, Romanian and Turkish versions.

 

With the same level of investment (one brand new mould), it makes much more sense to design kits of other aircraft that will not be as risky and from which more boxes will be made.

 

I will end this off-topic as this is a thread about the new Fw 190D kit.

[Piotr Mikolajski]

Two boxarts were posted on FB: https://www.facebook.com/ibgmodels/posts/4619771061477835

 

We present the boxarts of the first two premiere boxes. The sets will contain three painting schemes each, the box of D-9 version will contain three machines from combat units, the box of D-15 one painting of flying prototype and two what-if painting schemes. We will discuss the details of the project in the next days, stay tuned!

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Piotr Mikolajski
Typo

[Giorgio N]

Now that I see the D-15 box I kind of understand why IBG mentioned two engine types among the four production variants, as the D-15 was supposed to be powered by a DB603 instad of the Jumo of the other D subvariants. Thing is, to the best of my knowledge there was only ever a single prototype of the D-15, any "production" scheme can only be a what-if (and IBG correctly states how the other schemes in the box will be what-if). Not my kind of stuff really, but I bet that this will make the many Luftwaffe '46 fans happy, while the prototype will appeal to the dedicated Fw.190 aficionados who'll be able to build one mare rare variation

[lasermonkey]

If the price is right, I’ll be stocking upon D-9s, D-11s (I assume they’ll do this variant) and D-13s, as I’m only interested in things that were built.

[Piotr Mikolajski]

12 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

If the price is right, I’ll be stocking upon D-9s, D-11s (I assume they’ll do this variant) and D-13s, as I’m only interested in things that were built.

 

You can build a prototype D-15, it existed.

As for the versions, there will be D-9 with subcontractor variants as well as D-11, D-13 and D-15.

[HKR]

52 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

Thing is, to the best of my knowledge there was only ever a single prototype of the D-15.

Knowledge update: it existed. Prototype has been rebuilt from D-9 to D-15 standard and at least one example completed in March 1945 (this is confirmed by photos).

[czaralko]

Very interesting camo of the D-15, i would probably give one a try

[Sturmovik]

The D-15 boxart looks really cool. If it were in 48th I'd totally buy one.