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Belgian camouflaged F-104G colour query


clumsy
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Hello all,

 

I would appreciate a lot if someone could pass the information which system or code of colours had been applied on camouflaged Belgian Air Force F-104Gs.

 

Might it be possible that they had used FS equivalent RAL colours on BAF F-104Gs?

 

As far as I know most had been produced by SABCA; Belgian aircraft manufacturer company.

 

Thank You very much in advance,

 

Arkut

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Hi Arkut 

 

I don’t have fs numbers to hand but the colours are very similar to the US SEA scheme. If I remember correctly the tan isn’t quite the same but it’s not far off. 

 

Im sure others will be along shortly with a more comprehensive answer. I’ll mention @Giorgio N and @RidgeRunner here. 

 

HTH

 

James

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I don't have factory documentation so all I can offer are the colours indicated in a number of sources, including Belgian ones: these state that the colours wee from the FS range and were greens FS 24064 and 240102, tan 20219 and light grey 26622

Said that, Daco proposes different colours, these being FS 24079, 24097, 20227 and the same grey....

I don't know if Daco claims these to be the colours based on official documents or from observation of real aircraft or if the paints used changed over time. In any case I've never seen any mention of paints manufactured to any other standard when it comes to the Belgian Starfighters, only FS colours.

 

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According to a Belgian book, titled "F-104G Histoire du Lockheed Starfighter en Service a L'OTAN", the camouflage colors are Dark Green 24064, Green 24102, Tan 20219 and Grey 26622. The camouflage pattern is the same as that of USAF SEA scheme, but Dark green is different.

0008140.jpg

0008140_2.jpg

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

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Thanks a lot for the helps.

 

Actually I am well aware of the Federal Standard equivalents of the colours used on BAF F-104Gs. They also had been used on F-84Fs and Mirage Vs.

 

But, had they used the products which produced directly FS paints or did they obtained the colours from a source which produced the equivalent/similar RAL colours?

For example, if I am not wrong the Israelis use FS equivalent RAL colours on their planes when they paint the airplanes by themselves. 

 

I have the yellow bible (IPMS Color Cross-Reference Guide by David Klaus) in my library, it also describes the official color equivalents with FS numbers. But regarding that Belgium was one of the contractors for F-104 production for European countries and that the other parties had used RAL system for their airplanes (Italians are an exception) I suspect that the BAF had also decided to have the same approach and had used FS equivalent RAL colours.

 

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I'm afraid that unless someone has documentation from the factory, the answer will be impossible to find.

I may add a few comments..

The fact that the factory built aircraft for users that specified RAL colours does not mean that they could not use other colours for other users. Afterall the solution is simply to issue a request to paint manufacturers for something matching whatever paint the customer wishes.

In fact there was already an FS colour in use during the production of the F-104 at SABCA: all Belgian aircraft left the factory in the original natural metal/white/grey scheme, and the grey used under the wings was an FS colour.

This of course also means that SABCA didn't have to worry about the source of the camouflage colours for the Belgian scheme while building the F-104... The same SABCA in those same years built 87 aircraft for Germany, with a number built in Norm 62 camouflage using RAL colours.

 

As the Belgian camouflage was applied after the aircraft had initially entered service (the first camouflaged aircraft should have appeared in 1967), the matter of paints used switches from the manufacturer to whoever applied the paint scheme... that may well have been the same SABCA, as this company was responsible for inspections on the F-104 fleet. Or may have been some other establishment, I don't know exactly where the Belgian aircraft were repainted. Again it would be useful to see what the official air force documents requested and factory documents proving what paint was actually used.

 

The Italian F-104s did use RAL paints ! When camouflage was introduced, the colours were from the RAL catalgoue, although carried the air force own numbers. These were replaced from 1972 by different colours in a new air force list, that were matched to colours in the then current FS standard

Edited by Giorgio N
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4 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

I'm afraid that unless someone has documentation from the factory, the answer will be impossible to find.

I may add a few comments..

The fact that the factory built aircraft for users that specified RAL colours does not mean that they could not use other colours for other users. Afterall the solution is simply to issue a request to paint manufacturers for something matching whatever paint the customer wishes.

In fact there was already an FS colour in use during the production of the F-104 at SABCA: all Belgian aircraft left the factory in the original natural metal/white/grey scheme, and the grey used under the wings was an FS colour.

This of course also means that SABCA didn't have to worry about the source of the camouflage colours for the Belgian scheme while building the F-104... The same SABCA in those same years built 87 aircraft for Germany, with a number built in Norm 62 camouflage using RAL colours.

 

As the Belgian camouflage was applied after the aircraft had initially entered service (the first camouflaged aircraft should have appeared in 1967), the matter of paints used switches from the manufacturer to whoever applied the paint scheme... that may well have been the same SABCA, as this company was responsible for inspections on the F-104 fleet. Or may have been some other establishment, I don't know exactly where the Belgian aircraft were repainted. Again it would be useful to see what the official air force documents requested and factory documents proving what paint was actually used.

 

The Italian F-104s did use RAL paints ! When camouflage was introduced, the colours were from the RAL catalgoue, although carried the air force own numbers. These were replaced from 1972 by different colours in a new air force list, that were matched to colours in the then current FS standard

According to what is written in the book as a text (published by AirDoc) the Italians used RAL colours until 1980 and further on they switched to FS standards hence they became and exception in my opinion, for this instance.

"...is simply to issue a request to paint manufacturers for something matching whatever paint the customer wishes." Exactly kind of my point; the equivalent of FS colours in RAL system or no. Even though we say equivalent they are only similar in colour with different hue or tone for an educated eye. (unfortunately not my case. Therefore I am looking for evidence)

I agree on the gray (FS16473) colour under the wings but it would way much be easier to obtain that little amount of paint from the original source compared to other colours(ie. camouflage ones) that would be used to paint the whole aircraft.

Thanks again for the effort and time you are sending.

 

 

5 hours ago, RidgeRunner said:

I have checked the Lock-On book by Willy Peeters and, surprisingly, nothing is there about colours. I would, however, agree completely with Giorgio.

 

Martin

Neither anything is described in Mirage V book of the same series.

 

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I came up with this link https://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2002/10/stuff_eng_profile_thunderflash.htm

 

and the author has written this:

"Based on the comparison of full-size aircraft in Brussels Air Force Museum using a FS 595B fan deck, the colours of the Vietnam scheme were approximated to FS 34096 / 34097 / 34340 for the upper surfaces with a slightly off-white paint on the lower surfaces."

 

I know it is a museum piece and sometimes we need to approach them with caution. But I want to assume that the author knows his job.

By the way, the colours are still close to the FS colours of satin SEA camouflage colours.

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