72modeler Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 (edited) I am in the planning stage for a modeling project, using the 1/72 Eduard Bf-110G-4 kit. I have always wanted to build the example seen in the photo below, taken from the Warbird Photographs website, but have never been able to find the codes,complete camouflage pattern, or any other markings . I'm not married to the example in the photo, but would like it to be a G-4 with the same radar fit and MG 151 belly pod. Can any of you Luftwaffe Nachtjager experts help me out? (I will need to take the MG151 belly pod from my Eduard Bf110G-2 kit, as the G-4 boxing does not come with it.) If there are any examples that had this same fit, including the Schrage Musik 20mm cannon replacing the MG81z rear gun, that would be even better. Mike Photo purports this to be a Bf-110G-4b/R3 used to test the radar fit planned for the Bf-110G-4d Edited November 5, 2021 by 72modeler added text 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in Lincs Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 You could have a look around this site. He seems to know most things Luftwaffe. https://falkeeins.blogspot.com/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dov Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 Codes of Luftwaffe aircraft: http://www.rlm.at/cont/archiv02_e.htm The individual aircraft is something else. Happy modelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galgos Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 I thought I'd be able to help you since I have many references for the Bf110 night fighters, but that appears to be a pretty rare combination of radar plus armament; the FuG220/SN2 and FuG212 aerials and (probably) under belly Rustsatz 30mm gun pack. "Wings of the Black Cross Special" by Mark Proulx has it as D5+DK W.Nr 730037 of NJG3. The cannons are Mk108 used to increase forward fire power. Accept that for what it's worth, I know Mark to be a meticulous researcher. Take away the gun pack and you have C9+EN flown by Wilhelm Johnen of NJG5, of which he was very proud until he inadvertently flew it over Swiss air space and was forced to land. His shiny new Bf110G4 was subsequently "mysteriously" blown up to prevent it falling into Allied hands. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted November 8, 2021 Author Share Posted November 8, 2021 On 11/5/2021 at 3:59 PM, Pete in Lincs said: You could have a look around this site. He seems to know most things Luftwaffe. https://falkeeins.blogspot.com/ I look at this site at least once a week- never thought to check their archives for Bf-110 night fighter references . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 Just like @galgos I've reviewed my references for you with little luck. A clearer version of the picture appears in the Classic Publications Nachtjager Pt 2 1943-45 but there is no additional information on markings I'm afraid. My personal view is that this might be a purely experimental fit of radar and guns - the Bf 110 was slow enough by 1943 compared to the bombers it was chasing to really not need the additional drag of the belly pod, let alone a double radar fit with the associated weight and drag. Especially not when Schräge Musik was readily available with increased efficiency of success and almost no associated additional drag. And also like Max, I would certainly go with the information he offers sourced from Wings of the Black Cross - it's as reliable a source as you'll find apart from a definitive photo. HTH SD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dov Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 Happy modelling In Diepensee was the radio tests site during the war. My father worked there. So, we also can assume, that the location may be there. So if it is that way, you have as well the chance of a unit code, as well transition code with four big letters. Colour transition from black to RLM 76 was in 1943, after the big inflight in the Reich started. The presence of the gun bod is good! Just create your own codes! Use a propable unit...and follow the link I mailed you. There are some more hints to create a code! Happy modelling 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in Lincs Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 On 11/7/2021 at 6:04 PM, galgos said: His shiny new Bf110G4 was subsequently "mysteriously" blown up to prevent it falling into Allied hands. I'm sure I read somewhere that for allowing this 'accident', Switzerland got some brand new Bf109G's at cost price or cheaper. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galgos Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 Could well be Pete, wouldn't surprise me. In his autobiography "Duel under the Stars" Johnen states that after being forced to land in Switzerland, two persons were despatched from Germany, the first to blow up the Bf110, the second to kill Johnen. Fortunately when it was realised that Johnen hadn't "switched sides", the assassin was called off! But Johnen's parents had been arrested and given the third degree in very unpleasant circumstances. Tough times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 Is it helpful?: https://modelingmadness.com/scott/decals/aero/am48321.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted November 8, 2021 Author Share Posted November 8, 2021 @SafetyDad and @dov, Thanks for the input. I have the entire Classic Publications Jagdwaffe series, and you are right- there wasn't anything in the two volumes on night fighters, nor in any of my other dedicated Nachtjager references. I was able to find written reference that stated that the G-4b/R3 in the photo served as the prototype for the radar installation pictured, so most likely stayed at Rechlin, or might possible have been issued to one of the night fighter units- anybody's guess, right? I have a copy of Luftwaffe Codes, Markings, and Units, 1939-45 by Barry C. Rosch, which is an outstanding reference, as it explains the code system, Stab flight, Geschwader, Gruppe, Staffel, and other unit codes, and has photos and known codes carried by the aircraft types flown, organized by fighters, bombers., transports, ground attack aircraft, training aircraft,and gliders. Guess I will gather some salted snacks, a cold brewski or two, and go through the night fighter sections to find codes for a G-4b/R3. I would much rather find an actual photo of one in that configuration, (You know what @Troy Smith always says!) but that looks unlikely, so this might be a sort-of what-if modeling project. I might also just finish it with the crosses and swastikas, and if I turn up codes and a werk nummer later on, I can always add them. I always seem to fall in love with a modeling subject for which there is no solid documentation or decals available- it's a curse, I tell ya! Mike 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted November 8, 2021 Author Share Posted November 8, 2021 6 minutes ago, JWM said: Is it helpful?: Got the same references, JWM, but I do appreciate your taking the time and trouble to post them- bet they will be useful for others! Danke vielmals! Mike One of the problems I have encountered is that on many color profiles or drawings, the subtype is not listed- just Bf-110G-4 and not, for example, Bf-110G-4b/R3; almost none show or mention the presence of the twin MG151 belly pod. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 9 minutes ago, 72modeler said: One of the problems I have encountered is that on many color profiles or drawings, the subtype is not listed- just Bf-110G-4 and not, for example, Bf-110G-4b/R3; almost none show or mention the presence of the twin MG151 belly pod. This is exactly the problem why I did not done yet nightfighter Me 110! So the topic is familiar to me. The last two profiles are referring to photos (but which book?), so there is a hope that from it you can see the armament config.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galgos Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 1 hour ago, 72modeler said: One of the problems I have encountered is that on many color profiles or drawings, the subtype is not listed- just Bf-110G-4 and not, for example, Bf-110G-4b/R3; almost none show or mention the presence of the twin MG151 belly pod. Perhaps that's because it's probably an experimental and not an operational set up as SD and I have suggested. I have another book that I haven't checked by Alfred Price about Hitler's secret weapons that were going to win the war, but I wouldn't hold out too much hope. As a post script, in the book “Die Deutsche Nachtjagd” by Werner Held and Holger Nauroth there’s a clear photograph of the nose of this aircraft with a description of the equipment, the comment: “Also interesting is the Rustsatz with 2 MG 151 under the fuselage, which was very rarely used in night hunting machines.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 12 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said: I'm sure I read somewhere that for allowing this 'accident', Switzerland got some brand new Bf109G's at cost price or cheaper. And the Swiss subsequently found that the quality of their new 'gifts' was terrible! Such was late war quality control (as we saw recently in the video clip posted here by @tank152) SD 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 On 07/11/2021 at 19:04, galgos said: ... until he inadvertently flew it over Swiss air space and was forced to land. His shiny new Bf110G4 was subsequently "mysteriously" blown up to prevent it falling into Allied hands. To me it is a first to read the night fighter equipped with the then newest German radar equipment "mysteriously" blew up. I always thought (read) it was a "regular" negotiated deal. Somebody would have to teach me on international law and the rules of war if any of this happening in a neutral country had to be covered up to prevent legal consequences. Yes, it was not in favour of the allies, but about what is neutrality? Just like Sweden, keeping in contact with Britain (and allowing allied agents to work in Sweden to some degree) and selling livestock and iron ore to the Reich (and letting German troops pass to Finland and help their neighbor Fins against Russia). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dov Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 Hallo Just to keep in mind the timeframe for your 110: Developement was finished early 1943! The picture must be from this time. Units were equiped late 1943! To the post above from John: Neutrality is a theoretical issue. Same as territorial waters, are just a theoretical issue. Each law on earth will be obeyed if the counterpart has more power. The more powerful can cheat each law on earth. Stupid but reality. Happy modelling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted November 10, 2021 Author Share Posted November 10, 2021 On 11/8/2021 at 1:12 PM, JWM said: Is it helpful?: Got the same references, JWM, but I do appreciate your taking the time and trouble to post them- bet they will be useful for others! Danke vielmals! Mike One of the problems I have encountered is that on many color profiles or drawings, the subtype is not listed- just Bf-110G-4 and not, for example, Bf-110G-4b/R3; almost none show or mention the presence of the twin MG151 belly pod. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted November 10, 2021 Author Share Posted November 10, 2021 This just in! I found a very good selection of Bf-110G-4 photos on the website linked below; all types of radar fit;, and an excellent closeup of the inner cowling that shows the engine instruments mounted for viewing from the cockpit, among others. Some great modeling details not normally seen. Hope these will be useful for many of you! Mike https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Bf-110/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-110G-Zerstorer-firing-the-21cm-Werfergranate-Mortar-01.html In my copy of Luftwaffe Codes, Markings, and Units, 1939-45, I did find a photo of a Bf-110G-4b that belonged to Erprobungstelle Wernuechen, coded E8+TQ, but it only had the SN2 radar, but not the additional FuG-212 radar as shown on the one I posted that I would like to build. It also does not appear in the photo to have the MG151 20mm gun pod fitted. As this was a testing unit, it is possible that this Bf-110G might have had both radar types and the belly pod fitted at some point. E8 was listed as the code for all of the Erprobungstelle units, which were apparently based at 3-4 locations. I'm getting closer.... My sincere appreciation to all of you BMers who have posted replies to my query! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Ranger Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 On a somewhat related topic, I'm looking for images of the radar-equipped Bf 110s that were captured by the RAF or accidentally landed in England. Are there any decals available for these in 1/72? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dov Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 Yes, you got it! Erprobungsstelle! This is it, where it belongs too! Propably big letters as usual? Happy modelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted November 10, 2021 Author Share Posted November 10, 2021 6 hours ago, dov said: Yes, you got it! Erprobungsstelle! This is it, where it belongs too! Propably big letters as usual? Happy modelling In the photo I have, the E8 codes are small and the TQ codes are large. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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