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Can I build a Finnish Pe-2 from the Zvezda kit?


neilh
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I am away from my Kari Stenman Finnish references, so I am thinking the Antti's @antti and @Antti_K would be more helpful than I. IIRC, the seven Pe-2's that the Finns captured all were Series 1 variants that lacked the MV-3 dorsal turret, but had a streamlined rear canopy that was lowered to allow the gunner/observer to man a flexible 7.62mm ShKAS machine gun. ; IIRC, they were used for reconnaissance only, due to their speed  and range. Can't have enough models in Finnish markings around here! If you have some serials in mind, I can look them up for you, or I can give you the serials of the ones they flew, as well as color/paint references. I've got just about every decent WW2 Finnish aircraft reference book printed, as I have a great affection and respect for all of the aircraft the Finns operated You might want to check the available 1/72 kits to see if they offer that canopy option, as I don't think there are any aftermarket alternatives.

Mike

 

Paraphrased from Wikipedia on Finnish use of the Pe-2:

In 1941, after the outbreak of the Continuation War, Finland purchased six war booty Pe-2 aircraft from Germany. These arrived at State Aircraft Factory facilities at Härmälä in January 1942, where the airframes were overhauled and given Finnish serial numbers. The seventh Pe-2 was bought from the Germans in January 1944, and it was flown to Finland at the end of the month.

It was initially planned to use these planes as dive bombers in the 1st flight of LeLv 48, which began to receive its aircraft in July 1942, but during the training it was found out that this caused too much strain for the engines. Thus, the role of Pe-2s was changed to fly long-range photographic and visual reconnaissance missions for the Army General Headquarters. These sorties began in late 1942, and were often flown with two 250 kg (551 lb) bombs for harassment bombing and in order to cover the true purpose of missions.

By the time the Soviet Fourth strategic offensive started in June 1944, the secondary bombing role had already ended and the surviving Pe-2s began to be used solely at Karelian Isthmus in escorted (normally by four FiAF Bf 109 Gs) photographic reconnaissance flights in order to find out enemy troop concentrations. These vital missions were flown successfully, allowing artillery and Finnish Air Force and Luftwaffe's Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey's bombers to make their strikes against the formations preparing for attack, which had an important impact on the outcome of the Battle of Tali-Ihantala, where the Soviet advance was halted.

During the Continuation War, three Pe-2s were lost in accidents or technical failures, one was destroyed in bombing of Lappeenranta airfield, one was shot down by Soviet fighters and one went missing in action. In the Lapland War the only remaining machine flew a single reconnaissance sortie in October 1944. On average, the aircraft flew some 94 hours per plane during the war.

The Finnish Air Force also operated one Petlyakov Pe-3 (PE-301) that had been captured in 1943.

PE-301 and PE-215 were destroyed when Soviet aircraft bombed the Lappeenranta airfield on 2 July 1944. PE-212 went down in 1943, PE-213 was destroyed in an emergency landing in 1942. PE-214 was destroyed in a failed take-off attempt at Härmälä on 21 May 1942: as Härmälä airfield was quite short, the pilot had to try to lift off with too little speed, which caused the aircraft to stall and crash, killing the crew. PE-217 managed to shoot down a Soviet fighter in 1944. PE-216 was destroyed in a forced landing in 1944. PE-211 survived the war and was removed from FAF lists in 1946. It was still standing beside the Kauhava airfield in 1952, but further information on its fate is unknown.

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Thanks Mike, that suggests the Zvezda kit is the incorrect type as every boxing I can see on Scalemates suggests all have the dorsal turret.  I do have a part built HiPM kit with the other canopy type that was given to me by a colleague at my IPMS Branch but its a bit of a daunting build so I was hoping the well fitting and highly detailed Zvezda kit would fit the bill.  I may have to take a chance and get one anyway to see if I can adapt the canopy from the HiPM kit to the Zvezda one.   It would like to get an example of the Pe-2 in my WWII Finnish collection. 

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As the Finns had one with the dorsal turret, I don't see the problem.  The actual differences between the Pe.2 and Pe.3 are minor, and presumably minimised after conversion by the Finns to the recce role.  I would also prefer to see confirmation that PE-301 was indeed a Pe.3 anyway, and not just a mislabelled later production Pe.2.

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4 hours ago, neilh said:

the Zvezda kit is the incorrect type as every boxing I can see on Scalemates suggests all have the dorsal turret.  I do have a part built HiPM kit with the other canopy type that was given to me by a colleague at my IPMS Branch but its a bit of a daunting build so I was hoping the well fitting and highly detailed Zvezda kit would fit the bill.  I may have to take a chance and get one anyway to see if I can adapt the canopy from the HiPM kit to the Zvezda one.   It would like to get an example of the Pe-2 in my WWII Finnish collection. 

Neil, 

I suggest first,  we are talking 1/48th here?

 

Second, pin down what model the Zvezda kit represents.  

 

third, pin down what models the Finns actually had.   As Graham suggests, and as they were captured, they are different series and models. 

 

fourth, work out the differences.   

 

If you are lucky, someone will already know this, and pitch in.   

 

From memory, the HiPm kit is 'not great' in both buildabilty and accuracy,  I think the MPM was a bit better.   I did spend a while a few years ago going through all the online reviews.   I do have examples of all 3 kits, but never sat down and compared them,  side by side (and worrying I think I have 7 different kits....4 MPM, HiPm, Zvezda and the Eduard rebox) 

 

The Zvezda has had glowing reviews, but IIRC it represents a reasonably late series.

 

I've not seen an AM decals for the Zvezda kit in Finnish markings, so I doubt it's as simple as that. 

 

There is a similar thread here which may help.

@Antti_K has posted some useful info,  and maybe able to give you a better answer.    

 

Since the Pe-2 were captured models sold on by the Germans, they are going to be early versions.  The Pe-3 captured is later. 

 

Sorry, not really one of my best answers,    I suspect the most accurate model will be a conversion of the Zvezda kit, using the HiPm as donor for bit,  but how feasible that is I don't know.  

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Sorry, to clarify I am talking 1/48th ( did not realise Zvezda also produced a 1/72 model).   There does seem to be a turret equipped version ( Pe -301), so I can perhaps build the Zvezda model and have a Pe-2 in Finnish War Paint.  I cannot find anything telling me what version the Zvezda kit represents but it is most likely what is generally known as the 2FT version as this is the  most numerous. The Pe-3 is described as a long range nightfighter version but looks very similar to the turreted Pe-2 model.  I have plenty of decals but as Troy suggests, if there are no aftermarket especially from SBS it would suggest there are no easy from the box options for the purchased aircraft.

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3 hours ago, neilh said:

I cannot find anything telling me what version the Zvezda kit represents but it is most likely what is generally known as the 2FT version as this is the  most numerous.

some of the older kits do list what series they are,  the HiPM is Series 1-105,  

 

this boxing of the MPM

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/mpm-production-48046-petlyakov-pe-3-pe-2-serie-1941--112438

see http://www.olddogsplanes.com/pe3.html

 

 

is an early Pe-2 /Pe-3 

 

 

I'll have a look at @Learstang  book on Soviet Bombers

519CF9tk9kL._SX353_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Lt-Cdr-Mike-Cumberlege/dp/1781557160

 

there is the Peter C Smith book, but that dates from 2003, and I can't remember how much info it has on what series is what, and how they vary, or if much more has turned up from Soviet sources in the meantime. 

This has recently been reprinted

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Petlyakov-Pe-2-Stalins-Successful-Bomber/dp/1526759306

 

HTH

 

 

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The term Pe.2FT is a Western term for Pe.2s with the dorsal turret, and would not have been known to the Russians.  They were all just Pe.2s, of different production blocks.

 

The book you want is called Lentajan Album 4, by Toivo Sorsa.  It is dedicated to Finnish recce aircraft, specifically Blenheim, Do.17, DB.3/Il.4 and Pe.2 variants.  There are two photos of PE-301.  It appears to be an early production aircraft, to much the same standard as the PE-2xx aircraft.  The engine cowlings are the early variant, but there are no side transparencies in the nose nor visible fixed gun on the right hand side.  None of the Finnish examples appear to have divebrakes - or fixed nose guns, either, but these are often hard to see.  However PE-301 does appear to have the flat underside to the nose of a Pe.2 not a Pe.3.  The photos do not appear to show the side window aft of the wing, but this could be because of glare or the angle of the photos.

 

So it appears to be a not-quite-so-early production version of the Pe.2.   The photo above of Jason's book show the later nose and also the later engine intakes - these are perhaps the most significant thing to watch for in whatever kit you do choose to buy.

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Right, after a read of Jason's book,  the Finnish Pe-2

were early models

full?d=1521487951

 

compared to the Zvezda kit, different (more extensive )nose glazing, differnt rea canopy, different engines, so differnt prop and positiin, nacelles maybe different, different rear canopy,   and I suspect more,   so it's along line of, can I make a BoB Bf 110 from a late war nightfighter. 

yes, if you want to do a lot of work. 

 

On 22/10/2021 at 22:17, neilh said:

Before I buy one, does anyone know if it has the necessary parts to build a version flown by the Finns? 

so, the answer is no.

15 hours ago, neilh said:

I do have a part built HiPM kit with the other canopy type that was given to me by a colleague at my IPMS Branch but its a bit of a daunting build so I was hoping the well fitting and highly detailed Zvezda kit would fit the bill.  I may have to take a chance and get one anyway to see if I can adapt the canopy from the HiPM kit to the Zvezda one.   It would like to get an example of the Pe-2 in my WWII Finnish collection. 

Man up and get cracking.... :rolleyes:  

Seriously, while the HiPm kit is not an easy build, it at least has the right bits.   You could probably graft those onto a Zvezda Pe-2, but I don't know if that would work, and even then, I suspect the difference would be noticeable.  And is that any easier than dealing with HiPM kit....? 

How started, and what state is the HiPM kit?    I mean, what have you got too lose if you already have one?

 

There is a MPM early verion, /Pe-3 kit, but I doubt that's much easier.....   

 

Or wait......

maybe Zvezda will do an early version sometime...   perhaps Mr Tamiya will have a funny turn and do an early pe-2 :rofl2:

 

HTH

 

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Hello guys,

 

unfortunately I can't help with the kit. Here you can find  a very nice collection of Pe-2 and Pe-3 photos in Finnish service:

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wLj4cyzNZagIqlZ8CNBEcNu23-dl7_NN

 

It is the Air Force Museum's digital archive. Plenty of photos of other airplane types as well and also scans of aircraft manuals (like Ju-88 and Brewster Buffalo).

 

Cheers,

Antti

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9 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Hi all,

I'm not expert of Pe-3. but I think to see protruding barrels and oval windows on the photos of this archive, and the narrow glazing under the nose. Pe-301 seems the most feasible from the Zvezda kit.

Massimo

301 is a Pe-3 bis

 

5423.jpg

 

The differences between the Pe-3 and the Pe-2 top turrets discussed here

https://www.facebook.com/DLinevich/posts/1928752467291429

 

And more Pe-3 

https://www.facebook.com/DLinevich/posts/1947573518742657

https://www.facebook.com/groups/polkivvs/posts/1016337305848167/

Edited by DLinevitch
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